David Jacobs' BJJGround Attention Shen History of Sambo

2/11/18 6:06 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 8197

 

 

Shen,

 

Here is an excellent video on the history of Sambo. What I appreciate most about this video is the old footage of Sambo demostrations. Notice how the self defense moves closely resemble Gjj self-defense moves. See 4:30 for example

Edited: 2/11/18 7:06 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 30547

Sambo, BJJ, Danzan Ryu ju jitsu --and a LOT of other modern jujitsu stryles-- have their roots in pre-war Judo, ergo they have a lot of similarities and lots of technique overlap.

That is why when I started BJJ, I already knew much of the GJJ Self Defense curriculum. because many of  the moves were similar or identical to Danzan Ryu ju jitsu (which I am a black Belt in) and Hapkido, Small Circle Ju Jitsu and Gene Lebell & Gokors system which I also previously  trained for a couple years each.

 

 

 

2/11/18 7:32 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 8203
I am familiar with your background.

I guess my point is the Gjj self-defense curriculum isn't that bad or unrealistic as many claim. I think understanding the principles behind those technique is what makes them work in addition to them being used primarily on people who are clueless and don't know shit.

I believe the techniques in and of themselves are merely illustrations and demonstrations of defensive tactics, principles and concepts. One learns them BUT when one applies them one does so conjunction with important principles like off-balancing your opponent or combining them with other techniques.

People don't realize that is the reason why Judo has been so successful over the years. It is not the techniques... it is not the tactics... it is concepts like off-balancing the opponent, putting yourself in a position off advantage, leverage, etc.
2/11/18 8:10 PM
4/2/13
Posts: 5635

Man I read this thread title as the history of Shenbo.  

2/11/18 8:32 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 8938
m.g - I am familiar with your background.

I guess my point is the Gjj self-defense curriculum isn't that bad or unrealistic as many claim. I think understanding the principles behind those technique is what makes them work in addition to them being used primarily on people who are clueless and don't know shit.

I believe the techniques in and of themselves are merely illustrations and demonstrations of defensive tactics, principles and concepts. One learns them BUT when one applies them one does so conjunction with important principles like off-balancing your opponent or combining them with other techniques.

People don't realize that is the reason why Judo has been so successful over the years. It is not the techniques... it is not the tactics... it is concepts like off-balancing the opponent, putting yourself in a position off advantage, leverage, etc.
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2/11/18 10:06 PM
9/29/02
Posts: 24231

Katas, which the SD curriculum demos basically are, are a good catalog of the technical possibilities. Thye're just not holy scriptures of technical perfection like they've become for dead martial arts.

2/12/18 12:07 AM
1/1/01
Posts: 12693
m.g - I am familiar with your background.

I guess my point is the Gjj self-defense curriculum isn't that bad or unrealistic as many claim. I think understanding the principles behind those technique is what makes them work in addition to them being used primarily on people who are clueless and don't know shit.

I believe the techniques in and of themselves are merely illustrations and demonstrations of defensive tactics, principles and concepts. One learns them BUT when one applies them one does so conjunction with important principles like off-balancing your opponent or combining them with other techniques.

People don't realize that is the reason why Judo has been so successful over the years. It is not the techniques... it is not the tactics... it is concepts like off-balancing the opponent, putting yourself in a position off advantage, leverage, etc.


..."People don't realize that is the reason why Judo has been so successful over the years. It is not the techniques... it is not the tactics... it is concepts like off-balancing the opponent, putting yourself in a position off advantage, leverage, etc."

in a way.....NO.

those concepts exist before judo and one could argue most/all martial arts. It is the training method that makes nudo successful. So a critique of jiujitsu SD is valid if the training method of those techniques is kata-ish.
2/12/18 2:14 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 8207
Sgt. Slaphead - 
m.g - I am familiar with your background.

I guess my point is the Gjj self-defense curriculum isn't that bad or unrealistic as many claim. I think understanding the principles behind those technique is what makes them work in addition to them being used primarily on people who are clueless and don't know shit.

I believe the techniques in and of themselves are merely illustrations and demonstrations of defensive tactics, principles and concepts. One learns them BUT when one applies them one does so conjunction with important principles like off-balancing your opponent or combining them with other techniques.

People don't realize that is the reason why Judo has been so successful over the years. It is not the techniques... it is not the tactics... it is concepts like off-balancing the opponent, putting yourself in a position off advantage, leverage, etc.


..."People don't realize that is the reason why Judo has been so successful over the years. It is not the techniques... it is not the tactics... it is concepts like off-balancing the opponent, putting yourself in a position off advantage, leverage, etc."

in a way.....NO.

those concepts exist before judo and one could argue most/all martial arts. It is the training method that makes nudo successful. So a critique of jiujitsu SD is valid if the training method of those techniques is kata-ish.

You don't know what you're talking about. If you really took time to study the training methods of Judo and its founder Jigoro Kano you'll find the training method is ROOTED in kata. Heck... Judo has many katas. The late great Mifune even create a kata for developing counter-attacking skills (Nage Waza Ura No Kata)

Read Judo Formal Techniques by Tadao Otaki & Donn Draeger and Judo Training Methods by Takahiko Ishiwaka & Donn Draeger.

Like Phil Procter stated: "Katas, which the SD curriculum demos basically are, are a good catalog of the technical possibilities. They're just not holy scriptures of technical perfection like they've become for dead martial arts."



2/12/18 3:28 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 12694
ALL JUJUTSU STYLES WERE ROOTED IN KATA...What made judo successful was randori! The training metbod of training against resistance!
2/12/18 3:35 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 12695
Katas dont develop attributes, randori/sparring does.....Because of resistance! Resistance is lacking in kata. Innthe case of bjj/gjj SD techiniques, doing by rote series of moves doesn't develop any skills or attribute, it is our resistive method of trainjng n g that does.

Which is why i stated in other thread that IMO SD&VT are intimately linked in the development of FIGHTING ASPECT OF JIUJITSU.

Maybe you right...WTF do i know.
2/12/18 6:36 PM
11/20/15
Posts: 3539
Sgt. Slaphead -
m.g - I am familiar with your background.

I guess my point is the Gjj self-defense curriculum isn't that bad or unrealistic as many claim. I think understanding the principles behind those technique is what makes them work in addition to them being used primarily on people who are clueless and don't know shit.

I believe the techniques in and of themselves are merely illustrations and demonstrations of defensive tactics, principles and concepts. One learns them BUT when one applies them one does so conjunction with important principles like off-balancing your opponent or combining them with other techniques.

People don't realize that is the reason why Judo has been so successful over the years. It is not the techniques... it is not the tactics... it is concepts like off-balancing the opponent, putting yourself in a position off advantage, leverage, etc.


..."People don't realize that is the reason why Judo has been so successful over the years. It is not the techniques... it is not the tactics... it is concepts like off-balancing the opponent, putting yourself in a position off advantage, leverage, etc."

in a way.....NO.

those concepts exist before judo and one could argue most/all martial arts. It is the training method that makes nudo successful. So a critique of jiujitsu SD is valid if the training method of those techniques is kata-ish.

nudo?

As in The Way of Nude?

Either a great Way or not so great... depending on whose in class that day.

Sorry Sgt., I'm bored af right now.

2/12/18 6:56 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 12698
im surprised took this long for someone to do it.

i thumb type and give no fucks about errors, or even grammer.
2/12/18 11:04 PM
4/2/13
Posts: 5636

I myself am somewhat of an expert at "nudo".  Self proclaimed of course.

2/13/18 3:02 AM
1/1/01
Posts: 12699
being asian...nudo opens me up to public ridicule.
2/13/18 8:48 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 14382
m.g -
Sgt. Slaphead - 
m.g - I am familiar with your background.

I guess my point is the Gjj self-defense curriculum isn't that bad or unrealistic as many claim. I think understanding the principles behind those technique is what makes them work in addition to them being used primarily on people who are clueless and don't know shit.

I believe the techniques in and of themselves are merely illustrations and demonstrations of defensive tactics, principles and concepts. One learns them BUT when one applies them one does so conjunction with important principles like off-balancing your opponent or combining them with other techniques.

People don't realize that is the reason why Judo has been so successful over the years. It is not the techniques... it is not the tactics... it is concepts like off-balancing the opponent, putting yourself in a position off advantage, leverage, etc.


..."People don't realize that is the reason why Judo has been so successful over the years. It is not the techniques... it is not the tactics... it is concepts like off-balancing the opponent, putting yourself in a position off advantage, leverage, etc."

in a way.....NO.

those concepts exist before judo and one could argue most/all martial arts. It is the training method that makes nudo successful. So a critique of jiujitsu SD is valid if the training method of those techniques is kata-ish.

You don't know what you're talking about. If you really took time to study the training methods of Judo and its founder Jigoro Kano you'll find the training method is ROOTED in kata. Heck... Judo has many katas. The late great Mifune even create a kata for developing counter-attacking skills (Nage Waza Ura No Kata)

Read Judo Formal Techniques by Tadao Otaki & Donn Draeger and Judo Training Methods by Takahiko Ishiwaka & Donn Draeger.

Like Phil Procter stated: "Katas, which the SD curriculum demos basically are, are a good catalog of the technical possibilities. They're just not holy scriptures of technical perfection like they've become for dead martial arts."



lol at training methods rooted in kata.  As a sandan in judo I can say you will be hard pressed to find many competitive judoka that will in ANY fashion agree w you.  There are methods of progressive resistance that are used for training methods to develop off balancing, timing, distance management, etc.  None of us are spending significant time doing kata to get realistic shit.  In fact many in judo are split into the kata camp and non kata camp as some value it is as being crucial while the rest of us can lambast the fact that we don't use it for any real worthwhile training (hell see the russians as example as kata def is not taught in any fashion over there).

2/13/18 9:10 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 12703
BRO.....KATA IS THE TROOFS!

you a fuggin heathen!

And "Nudo" kata is some upper-level shit!
2/13/18 9:37 PM
4/2/13
Posts: 5637

Nudo leads to new nekkid grappo !

2/13/18 11:13 PM
2/24/06
Posts: 6468
Sgt. Slaphead - Katas dont develop attributes, randori/sparring does.....Because of resistance! Resistance is lacking in kata. Innthe case of bjj/gjj SD techiniques, doing by rote series of moves doesn't develop any skills or attribute, it is our resistive method of trainjng n g that does.

Which is why i stated in other thread that IMO SD&VT are intimately linked in the development of FIGHTING ASPECT OF JIUJITSU.

Maybe you right...WTF do i know.

This post made me think of the text book way to perform a technique, and adaptations that work better in real randori.  I remember being taught Osoto Gari in Judo, supposedly the traditional way it is taught.  Then I remember Rickson teaching my class his Osoto Gari, which seemed like a practical derivation, where he seems to rest his leg on the opponents leg before the sweeping motion.  

I guess you could say in some sense that Judio kata is based on the traditional move, but in order to make the move work, you might need a practical derivation.

I remember a guy who trained Judo up at I think UCSC, and he taught me his derivation of the Ippon Seonage, by grabbing the opponents GI at his chest to set up the throw, instead of grabbing the arm. 

2/14/18 6:48 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 8209
Sgt. Slaphead - Katas dont develop attributes, randori/sparring does.....Because of resistance! Resistance is lacking in kata. Innthe case of bjj/gjj SD techiniques, doing by rote series of moves doesn't develop any skills or attribute, it is our resistive method of trainjng n g that does.

Which is why i stated in other thread that IMO SD&VT are intimately linked in the development of FIGHTING ASPECT OF JIUJITSU.

Maybe you right...WTF do i know.

Who said katas develop attributes?

Katas are illustrations and demonstrations. They DO NOT develop skill, attributes or ability. They are guidelines, blueprints, procedures... they simply show you what to do and how to do it.

Again... I suggest you READ the books I referenced.
2/14/18 6:55 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 8210
Hunter V you said:

lol at training methods rooted in kata. As a sandan in judo I can say you will be hard pressed to find many competitive judoka that will in ANY fashion agree w you. There are methods of progressive resistance that are used for training methods to develop off balancing, timing, distance management, etc. None of us are spending significant time doing kata to get realistic shit. In fact many in judo are split into the kata camp and non kata camp as some value it is as being crucial while the rest of us can lambast the fact that we don't use it for any real worthwhile training (hell see the russians as example as kata def is not taught in any fashion over there).


Dude... as I told Sgt. Slaphead, I never claim kata develop any attribute. Katas are learning tools. You DO NOT use katas to develop the attributes and qualities you're talking about. You use other methods for that like uchi-komi. Don't try to argue against points I am not claiming. LEARN TO READ!
2/14/18 7:05 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 12704
I suggest you read WTF you wrote and responses

You..."People don't realize that is the reason why Judo has been so successful over the years. It is not the techniques... it is not the tactics... it is concepts like off-balancing the opponent, putting yourself in a position off advantage, leverage, etc."

My responce..."in a way.....NO.

those concepts exist before judo and one could argue most/all martial arts. It is the training method that makes nudo successful. So a critique of jiujitsu SD is valid if the training method of those techniques is kata-ish."

You dumb enough to think only judo has concepts such as kuzushi, leverage, etc?!?!?! Maybe YOU should crack a fuggin book once in awhile!



So let's see if we can help your book reading ass out.

You put forth the claim that "concepts" made judo "successful"....I say it was the training method. You counter with this fuggin gem of wisdom...

"You don't know what you're talking about. If you really took time to study the training methods of Judo and its founder Jigoro Kano you'll find the training method is ROOTED in kata. Heck... Judo has many katas. The late great Mifune even create a kata for developing counter-attacking skills (Nage Waza Ura No Kata)

Read Judo Formal Techniques by Tadao Otaki & Donn Draeger and Judo Training Methods by Takahiko Ishiwaka & Donn Draeger.

Like Phil Procter stated: "Katas, which the SD curriculum demos basically are, are a good catalog of the technical possibilities. They're just not holy scriptures of technical perfection like they've become for dead martial arts.""

This point especially illustrates your dumbassery..."If you really took time to study the training methods of Judo and its founder Jigoro Kano you'll find the training method is ROOTED in kata."

To which I responded with..."ALL JUJUTSU STYLES WERE ROOTED IN KATA...What made judo successful was randori! The training metbod of training against resistance!"

Speaking of books.....I have quite a collection of them ranging from classical jiujitsu, preWWII judo to classics such as Mifune's Canon of Judo.
2/15/18 6:41 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 8211
Sgt Slaphead,

You're as stupid as you are dumb!

Where did I say that Judo was the ONLY martial art/combat sport that has concepts such as kuzushi, leverage, etc?

Again you can't read. You should STOP putting words in my mouth and commenting on things I never stated or claimed.
2/15/18 7:18 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 12705
WAH....WAH..."CONCEPTS"

WAH....WAH..."KATA"

WAH...WAHhhhhhh

WAH.... Go read Dreager...WAH....WAHhhhhhh


Wahhhhhhhhh-wahhhhhhh *posts vid

WAHHHHHHHHHHH

2/15/18 7:35 PM
8/28/10
Posts: 9795

Whatever made judo successful, is the same  exact thing that is making this thread successful

2/16/18 10:35 AM
1/1/01
Posts: 14383
m.g - Hunter V you said:

lol at training methods rooted in kata. As a sandan in judo I can say you will be hard pressed to find many competitive judoka that will in ANY fashion agree w you. There are methods of progressive resistance that are used for training methods to develop off balancing, timing, distance management, etc. None of us are spending significant time doing kata to get realistic shit. In fact many in judo are split into the kata camp and non kata camp as some value it is as being crucial while the rest of us can lambast the fact that we don't use it for any real worthwhile training (hell see the russians as example as kata def is not taught in any fashion over there).


Dude... as I told Sgt. Slaphead, I never claim kata develop any attribute. Katas are learning tools. You DO NOT use katas to develop the attributes and qualities you're talking about. You use other methods for that like uchi-komi. Don't try to argue against points I am not claiming. LEARN TO READ!

Dude you need to calm down and actually examine WTF YOU wrote.  Esp as a person w a judo background don't come here and tell me about how, quoting you, ". If you really took time to study the training methods of Judo and its founder Jigoro Kano you'll find the training method is ROOTED in kata."  Kata is one training method and its one that for the most part isn't that great, period.  And that is what I addressed.  Now maybe you wanted to instead say something further from that but you didn't, so YOU learn to read what YOU wrote.  Go to any major judo team and ask them of the grand training methods they utilize being rooted in kata so you can get laughed off the tatami.