David Jacobs' BJJGround Barnett: BJJ=Gi, For No Gi Catch is the Way to Go

9/8/14 7:51 AM
3/6/12
Posts: 16362
Josh Barnett: ‘Jiu-Jitsu Is With The Gi, Without a Gi, It’s Whatever Else. For No Gi, Catch Wrestling Is The Way To Go’

Agree or Disagree?
9/8/14 7:52 AM
3/6/12
Posts: 16363

http://www.bjjee.com/articles/josh-barnett-jiu-jitsu-is-with-the-gi-without-a-gi-its-whatever-else-for-no-gi-catch-wrestling-is-the-way-to-go/

 

Full article here.

 

How would you describe the differences, in a fundamental capacity, between catch and jiu-jitsu? Where are they similar and where are they different?

As much as I will say catch really is more of a violent art opposed to the gentle art of jiu-jitsu, when it comes to jiu-jitsu at the highest level, it’s so funny. Everyone talks about all this skill and technique and gentleness, man, the top dudes in Brazilian jiu-jitsu, they all do the same techniques that a lot of folks do, especially if they’re all the same belt levels, except they do them all stronger, faster, harder. There’s a ton of strength dudes in all the games of all the top jiu-jitsu guys. It just wouldn’t work otherwise.

It’s the absolute truth. I think it was Karl Gotch who said “technique within strength”. If you lack the strength to pull the technique off against your opponent, then it won’t work. I remember from a very young age rolling with some of the best jiu-jitsu guys in the world whenever I got a chance to, and just being like, ‘Well, for an art that’s supposed to be so gentle, these guys feel like they’re fuel-injected, super charged funny cars going hauling ass, doing everything to discard everything in their path that they possibly can whenever the opportunity arises.’

So, I guess they’re not all that dissimilar from what we do, but the catch wrestler, we try to punish you, break you down, wear you out. You want to be as heavy on top as you can absolutely be, you want your opponent to carry as much of your weight as you can because that’s exhausting. It wears a person out. It doesn’t give them the opportunity to rest in a position and gather their wits.

The other thing is using the elbows, the shins, the bones of your body to crank and discomfort, apply pain to a person with the properly used half of an elbow when you’re on top in side control, you can maybe use the point of the elbow to dislocate the mandible on somebody’s face. Or drive into the orbital bone on their eye socket and crack it. There’s a lot of techniques like that. If a guy is too tough and he won’t open up, then you find a way to make him open up.

A less violent one, but also effective is simply you’re going for your double wrist lock or kimura, as they call it in jiu-jitsu, and someone’s planting the arm on the mat or they’re putting it on their hip, you can drive the point of your top elbow into the top of the shoulder in the delt[oid muscle], into the connective tissue and there’s a little nerve spot there that’ll actually make their arm straighten out, which can get it off of their hip and allow you to better isolate the arm before going for the submission.

9/8/14 9:52 AM
11/10/05
Posts: 4487

He's so full of sh!t... He's always trying to promote catch. Almost everything he did in that match up to the sub was bjj... He focused on the pass and maintaining position. Not once did he dive for a foot. He never bailed on top position to go for the neck, etc. To say that he wasn't doing bjj is laughable. How did he suddenly leave all those skills and philosophy at home? As the name implies Catch is about submission with a disregard for the sacrifice in position. He did the opposite of that.

I don't think people in bjj consider using the point of your elbow, etc. to cause pain, a technique of skill... Solid pressure and the details of position to best apply that pressure - yes.

9/8/14 9:59 AM
3/6/12
Posts: 16373
Meatgrinder - 

He's so full of sh!t... He's always trying to promote catch. Almost everything he did in that match up to the sub was bjj... He focused on the pass and maintaining position. Not once did he dive for a foot. He never bailed on top position to go for the neck, etc. To say that he wasn't doing bjj is laughable. How did he suddenly leave all those skills and philosophy at home? As the name implies Catch is about submission with a disregard for the sacrifice in position. He did the opposite of that.

I don't think people in bjj consider using the point of your elbow, etc. to cause pain, a technique of skill... Solid pressure and the details of position to best apply that pressure - yes.


I'm on your side with that. I think BJJ & Catch are the double-helix of grappling where in they're forever going to be intertwined to produce a product--e.g. the Kimura/Double-Wrist Lock stance.
9/8/14 11:21 AM
12/1/00
Posts: 15733
From what I understand, Catch Wrestling allows pins- thus the need for a guard and guard passing wasnt really stressed.

Good luck being a great no gi grappler without knowing how to do both (play guard and pass).

9/8/14 11:30 AM
3/6/12
Posts: 16377
kying418 - From what I understand, Catch Wrestling allows pins- thus the need for a guard and guard passing wasnt really stressed.

Good luck being a great no gi grappler without knowing how to do both (play guard and pass).


That's a really great observation.
9/8/14 12:45 PM
4/20/02
Posts: 5897
I think that's why the choke was considered a "cheap" hold, too, because you know your opponent is going to rather give you his back than get turned towards the mat.
9/8/14 1:03 PM
4/29/02
Posts: 1826
Barnett is actually one of my favorite fighters, but watching "catch" people latch onto him as total validation for their system is just sad. The guy trains everything. That's why he's so good.

I will say, It is very smart marketing for him to claim catch where he essentially has a monopoly as the only legit catch grappler at this point. Phone Post 3.0
9/8/14 1:38 PM
3/6/12
Posts: 16382
Marco Macera - Barnett is actually one of my favorite fighters, but watching "catch" people latch onto him as total validation for their system is just sad. The guy trains everything. That's why he's so good.

I will say, It is very smart marketing for him to claim catch where he essentially has a monopoly as the only legit catch grappler at this point. Phone Post 3.0

He's one of my favorites, too. I'll watch Josh fight anyone/anything and buy it everytime. But I can't blame him for crediting Catch when he can, it's 'his thing.'
9/8/14 2:11 PM
6/23/12
Posts: 737
The joke is that he isn't pure catch because Paulson is a legit BJJ black belt who trained with gracies and machados for years

Historically there is so much crossover and cross- exposure between the grappling arts that many positions and techniques are not mutually exclusive

Paulson himself is one of those guys who wants to absorb everything that works, whatever style or label. I think that's the best way Phone Post 3.0
9/8/14 2:39 PM
11/10/05
Posts: 4498

I guess if you wear speedos and shoes in a grappling match, it's catch.

I'm sure it's a bit of my attitude and perception, but I feel like he promotes catch at the expense and disrespect of BJJ. I just wish he'd promote catch as a great way to augment bjj or you overall grappling game. This would really reflect what you see from him on the mat. 

 

As far as the gentle/rough stuff... I don't see a need for the eye socket crushing as a necessity to exercise or demonstrate the skill of the art. Do they allow biting as well?

 

9/8/14 2:52 PM
2/18/03
Posts: 2015
We know from the sources cited in Choque and elsewhere that George Gracie (and maybe other Gracie Brothers) trained heavily with luta livre guys and competed in luta livre matches. George then went back and trained with Carlos and Helio.

We also know that luta livre existed prior to the Gracie's supposed time with Maeda and that it is claimed to be learned from European and/or North American catch wrestlers.

So, if you are saying Barnett is just doing BJJ because of his exposure to it, you can say the Gracies have been doing CACC alongside BJJ all these years to the same extent as Barnett is doing BJJ.

Maybe the more accurate thing to say these days is that it is all mixed up and (aside from specific rulesets defining disciplines and sports) you are basically just doing grappling either in the jacket or without the jacket. Sure there are techniques that pop up with more frequency in one style or another, but basically everyone knows roughly the same techniques now no matter their claimed style.
9/8/14 3:04 PM
2/18/03
Posts: 2016
But, if we are going to attach labels to submission focused grappling with and without the jacket it makes sense that the no-gi only guys may eventually gravitate towards some "other" label like catch (regardless of actual specific lineage) since many in the BJJ community are insisting that it's not BJJ unless you train at least some of the time in the jacket.
9/8/14 3:10 PM
5/15/03
Posts: 2971
Or just do Bjj but a little meaner? Phone Post 3.0
9/8/14 3:25 PM
3/6/12
Posts: 16389
Cole Miller, always to the point. VU, kid.
9/8/14 6:54 PM
9/26/07
Posts: 317

I might have to rewatch the match but it seemed to me that everything Barnett did in his match was pretty much a walk through of the techniques he shows on his 'Punishing rides' dvd. In fact i think I could even hear Erik Paulson calling out 'spiral ride' & some other wrestling instructions. I think it depends on what your definition of BJJ is but certaintly to me seems more like he used wrestling to pin his opponent & keep him in a bad position while working his submission attempts.

9/8/14 11:00 PM
7/8/09
Posts: 411
ColeMillerATT - Or just do Bjj but a little meaner? Phone Post 3.0

This

9/8/14 11:32 PM
9/10/12
Posts: 7541
I trained a bit with Josh back in 2000-2002. He was def doing BJJ at the time.

He's full of shit. Phone Post 3.0
9/9/14 12:33 AM
7/14/08
Posts: 15820
lets get dangerous - 
ColeMillerATT - Or just do Bjj but a little meaner? Phone Post 3.0
Like growling and snarling while you go for a sub? Phone Post 3.0

9/9/14 12:35 AM
12/22/03
Posts: 2926
He's humongous and been on and off steroids for over a 10-15 year period now....so no, I can't relate to josh Barnett.
9/9/14 1:50 AM
5/8/13
Posts: 42
Is CSW considered catch wrestling? Phone Post 3.0
9/9/14 7:17 PM
7/6/08
Posts: 6350
He's selling his sport just like everyone else does, as well as making himself into a heel in the bjj community. He's not dumb. Phone Post 3.0
9/13/14 7:51 AM
6/15/07
Posts: 10376
Mancuso has caight correct as correct can.

Barnett has had a BJJ coach for over a decade. Phone Post 3.0
9/13/14 2:56 PM
4/29/02
Posts: 1837
Badmonkey - Mancuso has caight correct as correct can.

Barnett has had a BJJ coach for over a decade. Phone Post 3.0
Yep. It reminds me of when Maurice Smith came out with the "How to defeat BJJ" instructionals and it was just him showing BJJ techniques Phone Post 3.0
9/13/14 7:43 PM
2/28/06
Posts: 5289
If you know the curriculum in "punishing rides", you'll see Josh displayed it perfectly.

BJJ is so funny. A BJJ player can study wrestling and judo for years, but they are still a BJJ player.

...But, it a Judoka, catchwrestler, shootwrestler, Sambo player or wrestler does BJJ for two weeks, suddenly they are a BJJ player.


So, funny and hypocritical.