David Jacobs' BJJGround Does new leg lock game work against strikes?


5 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 11672
How much of the new leg lock game (and is it really new?) works against strikes? I'm particularly thinking about being kicked in the face with the non-leg locked foot or being ground and pounded by punches or elbows.
thanks!
5 days ago
9/13/16
Posts: 859
strikes obviously make things a little riskier but i would say that the leg lock game still works VERY well.

if the guy knows what he is doing, his opponent's knee will be popped before he is ever in danger of a kick.
5 days ago
2/5/06
Posts: 3039

A lot of the new leg lock game involves controlling both legs at the same time.

5 days ago
9/21/12
Posts: 85

Let’s do more combat jujitsu and find out!

5 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 11675
thanks for the answers!
4 days ago
5/7/06
Posts: 2270

Firas did a video on his YT with some of the DDS guys doing the legthing against a guy with boxing gloves on. 

Worked great. The modern leg control game is really good at controlling & keeping dudes at bay

4 days ago
2/15/14
Posts: 492

In theory, yes it should work because the modern game involves controlling  both legs at the same time so the opponent cant stand and hit you with signifcant power

 

Most MMA orgs wont allow you to get kicked since if both guys are laying down attacking/defending the legs, both guys are considered downed opponents so you likely wont need to worry aboiut getting kicked

 

However, real world evidence shows otherwise. I've seen many guys get rocked while going for leglocks in amatuer and pro MMA fights, while both guys were sitting on their butts, legs entangled. 

Remember Arlovski vs Pe De Pano? In theory that shouldn't have hurt Pe De Pano since Arlovksi shouldnt have been able to generate enough power to singifcaintly hurt him but it did, and finished the fight and Ive seen it many times so until we see more leglock success vs strikes, we can only speculate 

4 days ago
4/27/18
Posts: 83

No doubt the Danaher style will work even at high levels of mma. Palhares did great even with a very limited tool set.

4 days ago
7/30/03
Posts: 6095

If I remember right, wasn’t Pe de pano/Arlovski a punch... that happened after a restart before Pe de pano was back in position again?

3 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 24105

as with everything else in MMA it depends on the set up. The risk with any leg lock in mma is that you're tying up both of your hands on their body part and unless there is a wedge keeping them from sitting up on you your face/head is potentially exposed to strikes. This is particularly true when grapplers go for leglocks when their attacking arm is on teh bottom (belly down) and when guys sit up in butterfly/hook guards when their opponent is standing. Even little punches completely change peoples grips, posture, etc. WIth that said leg locks can be very effective, just with a slightly more limited entry set than you can do in grappling

3 days ago
11/2/12
Posts: 47

Paul Harris ? 

3 days ago
9/7/17
Posts: 175
Daniël Bertina - 

Firas did a video on his YT with some of the DDS guys doing the legthing against a guy with boxing gloves on. 

Worked great. The modern leg control game is really good at controlling & keeping dudes at bay


This. And in that video they could have been more conservative and it worked anyways. By more conservative I mean specifically going after the saddle position and controlling both legs before attempting to finish the heel hook or cloverleaf.

I think the saddle is definitely the safest choice. it's the easiest position to control both legs from, it has the most powerful hip pinning pressure, it's the best for maintaining distance, and it opens up for you the strongest break (inverted heel hook).

Edited: 3 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 31290

In training with students I have learned that while it DOES offer protection against common strikes, it provides almost ZERO protection against projectiles.

I was able to hit students --at will-- with a variety of small darts, needles and even sharpened coins as they went for leg locks.

While not very pleasant, it was good training, for them.
3 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 40271
SidRon - 

A lot of the new leg lock game involves controlling both legs at the same time.


And knocking people down to their hips and hands.

3 days ago
12/8/16
Posts: 145

In any leg entanglement you want to try to establish control of both legs as the free leg is able to interfere with whatever submission you're trying to apply.  It's just like upper body submissions in that there is a definitive hierarchy to each position (to an extent, there will be personal choices based on what your game is) and as you progress your way up that hierarchy you establish more and more control of your opponent.  So if you are in a position like 50/50 you have limited control over the hips so your opponent is able to stand, rotate, or use their hips to generate power.  As you climb through the hierarchy to things like outside ashi they have less control as you gain more control of their hip.  If you get to 4-11/Saddle/Inside Sankaku/whatever you choose to call it, you have a great deal of control over the hips and the ability to easily control the free leg, if you go a step further and cross that leg over the entanglement (10p calls this "Tony Montana") it actually completely immobilizes their lower body, and from there unless you're opponent (victim at this point) is a knuckle dragging Neanderthal your face is outside of striking range as well from their hands. 

 

The difference between "modern" leg locks and leg locks of the past is the focus on control, and really it's been there for years, it's just been over looked by the majority of grapplers because leg locks were "dirty" and "cheap" so no one devoted time to learning them.  But if you watch old Pancrase, or guys like Ken Shamrock, Genki Sudo, Shinya Aoki, etc they've understood this concept for a long time.  It's like any other joint submission, you isolate, immobilize, and then apply the finish; the "modern" system is just focusing more on steps 1 and 2 were as previously the concept was "grab the ankle, fall back, crank as hard as you possibly can"  Which is obviously wrong.

3 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 11680
thanks for the responses!

as always, lol at shen
3 days ago
2/15/14
Posts: 493
Calhoon -

If I remember right, wasn’t Pe de pano/Arlovski a punch... that happened after a restart before Pe de pano was back in position again?

PeDePano was attacking Arlovskis foot and they were sitting butt to butt with legs entangled.  From the sitting position Arlovski threw a straight right and stunned PeDePano. He then untagnled the legs, came on top and finished him with strikes 

1 day ago
5/11/08
Posts: 1575
mideastgrappler -
Calhoon -

If I remember right, wasn’t Pe de pano/Arlovski a punch... that happened after a restart before Pe de pano was back in position again?

PeDePano was attacking Arlovskis foot and they were sitting butt to butt with legs entangled.  From the sitting position Arlovski threw a straight right and stunned PeDePano. He then untagnled the legs, came on top and finished him with strikes 

Here's the fight:

https://www.mma-core.com/videos/Andrei_Arlovski_vs_Marcio_Cruz_UFC_66_Full_Fight/10128428

It's a weird situation because of the restart. 

 

18 hours ago
2/15/14
Posts: 495
pbody -
mideastgrappler -
Calhoon -

If I remember right, wasn’t Pe de pano/Arlovski a punch... that happened after a restart before Pe de pano was back in position again?

PeDePano was attacking Arlovskis foot and they were sitting butt to butt with legs entangled.  From the sitting position Arlovski threw a straight right and stunned PeDePano. He then untagnled the legs, came on top and finished him with strikes 

Here's the fight:

https://www.mma-core.com/videos/Andrei_Arlovski_vs_Marcio_Cruz_UFC_66_Full_Fight/10128428

It's a weird situation because of the restart. 

 

what restart?The ref stopped the fight momentarily to give Arlovski a warning, the position didnt change. If anything, Arlovski threw that big punch laying from his back which was even worse than I originally thought it was

7 minutes ago
7/30/03
Posts: 6096

IMO leg lock positions are relatively safe positions. Much safer than most guard positions, especially half guard positions. And, due to the knowledge of leg locks lagging behind even with trained fighters, they offer a high percentage of finishes. So yes they are a great addition in mma. On the street I think they would cause excessive damage and a good Jiu-Jitsu guy wouldn’t need them unless maybe he was fighting a Bob Sapp like giant.