Revgear League BJJGround When an instructor is a rapist... (No, not Lloyd.)

6/28/13 2:29 PM
9/28/11
Posts: 10
I posted on my blog and facebook yesterday about a dilemma I faced recently, and hadn't had a chance to share the link here or on Sherdog or JJF. Then I took some shit about how I was playing favorites vis a vis Lloyd Irvin since I wasn't putting the blog post up here/Sherdog/JJF. In the post, I do put the individual and his affiliation head on blast, by the way.

http://www.georgetteoden.blogspot.com/2013/06/when-instructor-in-your-own-backyard-is.html

In short, I'm curious what other people would do. If you find out a "friend" (loosely) who teaches jiu jitsu-- in your own town no less-- was arrested for two sexual assaults, and pled guilty to indecent exposure and unlawful restraint, should they have to disclose that to the women they're teaching?

I am torn-- I think obviously yes, and I tend to think the head of the academy with whom they are affiliated should decline to affiliate with them further, and I even think maybe rank should be yanked. Who wants a rapist representing them? But I'm less certain about those issues than I am about the need for his female students and potential students to know his past. Too many women start taking a martial art for self defense and too many of them are rape survivors. What a horrible thing to learn belatedly that your instructor is a rapist!

Am I being genderist? should the male students be informed too?

Interested in your thoughts.
6/28/13 2:58 PM
9/28/11
Posts: 11
Thank you, I'm still technologically retarded when it comes to hyperlinks :(
6/28/13 3:43 PM
2/28/03
Posts: 36251
People who commit sex crimes have no place in having a power position over women or children. They've already shown what they would do with that power Phone Post 3.0
6/28/13 4:05 PM
7/23/07
Posts: 154
I'm a female jiu jitsu player who has never been a sexual assault victim. I agree 100% with your choice and ditto on what checkuroil said.
6/28/13 5:46 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 35845
I think we'd be surprised if the conviction records from Brazil were ever released.

I also think it was good of you to expose. People do deserve second chances but unfortunately there are limits to how much latitude those chances carry. Phone Post
6/28/13 6:09 PM
10/5/12
Posts: 44
checkuroil - People who commit sex crimes have no place in having a power position over women or children. They've already shown what they would do with that power Phone Post 3.0

Perfect!!
Edited: 6/28/13 8:17 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 20328
CUO is right.

BTW, you actually used the word "aegis" in trying to communicate WITH a Brazilian instructor...? Have you MET any Brazilian BJJ instructors before? LOL.

I kid.

:)
6/28/13 10:40 PM
8/25/07
Posts: 1433

I hope the anonymous idiot on your blog sees that you posted this on a forum.

6/28/13 11:33 PM
5/6/10
Posts: 361
Would u guys feel the same if your 30 year old instructor went to brazil and hooked up some 16 year olds he met online beforehand? Bc here that's a sex crime.

Not saying anything either way just pointing out that for every one that's caught there's plenty more not getting caught that are just as dangerous. Phone Post 3.0
6/28/13 11:40 PM
3/13/02
Posts: 7570
BJJBuster - Would u guys feel the same if your 30 year old instructor went to brazil and hooked up some 16 year olds he met online beforehand? Bc here that's a sex crime.

Not saying anything either way just pointing out that for every one that's caught there's plenty more not getting caught that are just as dangerous. Phone Post 3.0
Uhhhh...kinda, yeah. Phone Post 3.0
Edited: 6/29/13 11:32 AM
12/21/04
Posts: 1140
I say no. If the instructor chooses to tell their students then okay, but I don't think it should be an expectation. Of course sexual assault is a serious crime, but where do you draw the line? Do you tell the children in your kids class that you just got busted for cocaine? Do you share that DUI you received last year with the student whose brother was killed by a drunk driver? Do you tell your Islamic student about the affair you are currently having? Do you share your plan to get an abortion with an anti-abortion activist? Do you tell your students who you sweat with on a daily basis that you have HIV (very sensitive topic).I can see where the sexual assault case you refer to is a little different because the crime is public knowledge and the students will likely find out about it. I just think that people have the right to keep information about their lives private, unless mandated by law (e.g., Sex Offender Registry).
6/29/13 12:14 PM
2/28/03
Posts: 36254
aaronlapoi - I say no. If the instructor chooses to tell their students then okay, but I don't think it should be an expectation. Of course sexual assault is a serious crime, but where do you draw the line? Do you tell the children in your kids class that you just got busted for cocaine? Do you share that DUI you received last year with the student whose brother was killed by a drunk driver? Do you tell your Islamic student about the affair you are currently having? Do you share your plan to get an abortion with an anti-abortion activist? Do you tell your students who you sweat with on a daily basis that you have HIV (very sensitive topic).I can see where the sexual assault case you refer to is a little different because the crime is public knowledge and the students will likely find out about it. I just think that people have the right to keep information about their lives private, unless mandated by law (e.g., Sex Offender Registry).
So you would send your wife or kid to train with him and give him a pass on disclosure? Phone Post 3.0
6/29/13 12:17 PM
12/21/04
Posts: 1141
checkuroil - 
aaronlapoi - I say no. If the instructor chooses to tell their students then okay, but I don't think it should be an expectation. Of course sexual assault is a serious crime, but where do you draw the line? Do you tell the children in your kids class that you just got busted for cocaine? Do you share that DUI you received last year with the student whose brother was killed by a drunk driver? Do you tell your Islamic student about the affair you are currently having? Do you share your plan to get an abortion with an anti-abortion activist? Do you tell your students who you sweat with on a daily basis that you have HIV (very sensitive topic).I can see where the sexual assault case you refer to is a little different because the crime is public knowledge and the students will likely find out about it. I just think that people have the right to keep information about their lives private, unless mandated by law (e.g., Sex Offender Registry).
So you would send your wife or kid to train with him and give him a pass on disclosure? Phone Post 3.0

Not what I'm saying at all. What I'm saying is I wouldn't expect the instructor to disclose this news to his students. I believe that was the question the OP asked.
6/29/13 3:02 PM
5/12/03
Posts: 10401
Just saw Regan's facebook update

Rigan Machado
I just want to make the public aware that I no longer have any relationship or ties to Paul Saucido and Zen Jiu-Jitsu. Zen Jiu-Jitsu is no longer affiliated with me after the information about his sex offender status was made known to me. I have cancelled all seminars present and future with Zen Jiu-Jitsu. I do not support sex offenders and will take all necessary precautions to ensure our mats are safe and students worldwide can train in a safe environment. Background checks will be mandatory for all instructors and staff at any academy that I teach at.

Respectfully, Rigan Machado
6/30/13 7:49 AM
8/17/12
Posts: 1207
Ray Elbe - Just saw Regan's facebook update

Rigan Machado
I just want to make the public aware that I no longer have any relationship or ties to Paul Saucido and Zen Jiu-Jitsu. Zen Jiu-Jitsu is no longer affiliated with me after the information about his sex offender status was made known to me. I have cancelled all seminars present and future with Zen Jiu-Jitsu. I do not support sex offenders and will take all necessary precautions to ensure our mats are safe and students worldwide can train in a safe environment. Background checks will be mandatory for all instructors and staff at any academy that I teach at.

Respectfully, Rigan Machado
Good for rigan! And the op Phone Post
6/30/13 9:26 AM
5/6/10
Posts: 369
aaronlapoi - I say no. If the instructor chooses to tell their students then okay, but I don't think it should be an expectation. Of course sexual assault is a serious crime, but where do you draw the line? Do you tell the children in your kids class that you just got busted for cocaine? Do you share that DUI you received last year with the student whose brother was killed by a drunk driver? Do you tell your Islamic student about the affair you are currently having? Do you share your plan to get an abortion with an anti-abortion activist? Do you tell your students who you sweat with on a daily basis that you have HIV (very sensitive topic).I can see where the sexual assault case you refer to is a little different because the crime is public knowledge and the students will likely find out about it. I just think that people have the right to keep information about their lives private, unless mandated by law (e.g., Sex Offender Registry).
Very interesting point and I can say I agree. It should be the students responsibility to do research. I bet many of the folks crying out now never did any research ad it sounds like a lot of this is easy access. It will certainly play in to my future decisions. Phone Post 3.0
6/30/13 11:03 AM
1/1/01
Posts: 16367
i'd say there should be full disclosure. however, the whole story should be known. for example, 'rape' can be arbitrary, in that if an 19 year old has consensual sex with a 16 year old in some states, that would be considered 'rape'.

would i have a problem sending my gf, mother, etc. to someone like that who had been convicted in a case like that and did his time? just on that fact alone, no. there would have to be other factors.

however, the case would be different in a gangbang at university with overwhelming evidence of no consent of course.

also, men should know, because they might send their spouses, etc. to train there.
6/30/13 11:35 AM
1/26/09
Posts: 1204
aaronlapoi - I say no. If the instructor chooses to tell their students then okay, but I don't think it should be an expectation. Of course sexual assault is a serious crime, but where do you draw the line? Do you tell the children in your kids class that you just got busted for cocaine? Do you share that DUI you received last year with the student whose brother was killed by a drunk driver? Do you tell your Islamic student about the affair you are currently having? Do you share your plan to get an abortion with an anti-abortion activist? Do you tell your students who you sweat with on a daily basis that you have HIV (very sensitive topic).I can see where the sexual assault case you refer to is a little different because the crime is public knowledge and the students will likely find out about it. I just think that people have the right to keep information about their lives private, unless mandated by law (e.g., Sex Offender Registry).
I think we draw the line at sexual assault. That's what this issue is about.

I'm surprised you're even suggesting otherwise. Phone Post 3.0
6/30/13 11:58 AM
12/21/04
Posts: 1142
omoplautistic - 
aaronlapoi - I say no. If the instructor chooses to tell their students then okay, but I don't think it should be an expectation. Of course sexual assault is a serious crime, but where do you draw the line? Do you tell the children in your kids class that you just got busted for cocaine? Do you share that DUI you received last year with the student whose brother was killed by a drunk driver? Do you tell your Islamic student about the affair you are currently having? Do you share your plan to get an abortion with an anti-abortion activist? Do you tell your students who you sweat with on a daily basis that you have HIV (very sensitive topic).I can see where the sexual assault case you refer to is a little different because the crime is public knowledge and the students will likely find out about it. I just think that people have the right to keep information about their lives private, unless mandated by law (e.g., Sex Offender Registry).
I think we draw the line at sexual assault. That's what this issue is about.

I'm surprised you're even suggesting otherwise. Phone Post 3.0

If we draw the line at sexual assault then no, I don't think the instructor should be required or expected to tell his students about it. If the information is public knowledge the instructor might feel it would be beneficial to discuss it, but that is a case by case basis.
6/30/13 2:05 PM
1/26/09
Posts: 1205
Like for example with any female or underage student? Cases like those? Guys don't need to know he's a rapist though?

Or should he just tell former rape victims? Or potential victims of his? Phone Post 3.0
6/30/13 9:22 PM
6/4/02
Posts: 15354
why are there so many words being typed?


flat out. no disclosure = piece of shit.

-----
where do we draw the line? we don't. I fucking hate drug addicts, cheaters, adulterers, and most of all sex offenders. I want to know everything about people that may have influence over me or others may associate me with.

I've been unfortunate in my 13 years to have to deal w/ all but the sex offenders. from cheaters, addicts, to Ponzi scheme guys, I've had to deal w/ them in bjj. and I've cut them off ASAP.

be upfront w/ people. at least at some point in your relationship w/ them.

anybody ever laugh at how many bjj guys who got addicted to drugs have cleaned up and found god? they all find god in the end... and the adulterers and cheaters tell you to be loyal to your team...
7/1/13 5:29 AM
1/1/01
Posts: 2612
I kinda pity these guys. Everyone deserves a second chance.

However, if anyone was ever convicted of such a thing, I don't think it would be a bad idea just simply not accept female students, without having to reveal your past.

Win-win. Don't take the chance of being accused, yet able to make a living.

Better yet, get married, train your wife, and someday, your wife takes the female class.

Either way, if you are ever convicted of such a thing, you should make sure you are above reproach.

7/1/13 10:13 PM
11/4/11
Posts: 1809
See the RCJ all access and Tom Callos facebook pages, he is quoted there. I can not post a link from my phone, but they both appear to be public pages Phone Post 3.0
7/1/13 10:24 PM
1/11/13
Posts: 854
'Official Statement: My brothers and I are doing everything we can to get all websites, Facebook pages and other media outlets to reflect that Rigan Machado has cut ties with Paul and Zen Jiu-Jitsu. As you are all aware these things take time. Rest assure we are taking care of everything and would like to have everyone back off and give us time to get it all done.
As soon as I can get a copy of a C&D I will get it posted online for the world to see and to stop all of the hate!
We stated we have cut ties publicly as well as upped our BG check policies. Please respect our word that everything else is being updated and taken care of as quickly as we can!

Respectfully - Carlos Machado'

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=597812043592064&id=180707831969156
7/2/13 5:27 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 9691
After reading some of the reactions I can't help but think that the growing awareness within the BJJ community of sexual harassment and its relationship to sexual assault is not some flash in the pan.

BJJ is one of the best MAs to prevent rape and I don't doubt that many women want to partcipate but do not primarly because of the comfort level. Speaking out against such harassment and assault, and showing support for those who take action like Georgette and the Machados will really help the sport grow the way it should.