UnderGround Forums Why did BJ not use his bjj to the fullest?

7/7/14 7:30 PM
5/18/12
Posts: 786
Sorry if this has been covered before. I only use the app.

BJ is badass at bjj, a prodigy at one point in his career yet all his submission wins are by rear naked choke and one arm triangle. Why didn't he use other techniques? When he was laid on by Hughes, gsp, Fitch and gnped by Frankie, why didn't he try for triangles, arm locks, kimuras, leg locks? Trying these techniques could have opened up fighters to mistakes and allowed him to get back to his feet.

Admittedly, I am ignorant to bjj and have only trained in aikido so if I am missing something obvious, please excuse me. Phone Post 3.0
7/7/14 7:35 PM
11/24/13
Posts: 38
Dude, BJ did nothing. He didn't utilize any facet of MMA.

BJ looked like a kid waiting at the bus stop. Honestly it was an unforced mental error to do that. Either that or he wasn't physically able to widen his stance due to injury.
7/7/14 7:36 PM
11/21/05
Posts: 6099
Because Frankie was wrecking him from the top and is a beast.
7/7/14 7:37 PM
7/3/06
Posts: 4552
BJJ is not so easily utilized when you're getting smashed in the face.

Also its not like the dudes he was fighting suck on the ground.
7/7/14 7:37 PM
3/30/14
Posts: 1370
How many times have Fitch, Hughes and Frankie been subbed when on top of an opponent? Did you see how much Frankie was moving around on the ground and not attempting to pass guard (leaving himself open)? Phone Post 3.0
7/7/14 7:41 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 38256
pNUTBUTTER - Sorry if this has been covered before. I only use the app.

BJ is badass at bjj, a prodigy at one point in his career yet all his submission wins are by rear naked choke and one arm triangle. Why didn't he use other techniques? When he was laid on by Hughes, gsp, Fitch and gnped by Frankie, why didn't he try for triangles, arm locks, kimuras, leg locks? Trying these techniques could have opened up fighters to mistakes and allowed him to get back to his feet.

Admittedly, I am ignorant to bjj and have only trained in aikido so if I am missing something obvious, please excuse me. Phone Post 3.0

With the caliber of people who've been on top of him, one could say, "Easier said than done".

Removing that factor, without knowing his intentions it's hard to say. You cannot know the intention unless it is executed successfully. However, it "appears" he's never had a very offensive guard (refer to my first sentence), and Frankie's camp obviously exploited this as part of their gameplan.

For me, I don't understand why he stuck to butterfly guard when he was getting hammered and threatened with passes. Butterfly offers sweeps and get-ups, but doesn't give you submission opportunities or punch protection like the closed guard does.
7/7/14 7:41 PM
5/18/12
Posts: 787
Well, I'm not just talking about last night's fight, but all of his fights. I don't remember him ever trying a triangle. Chael was dominating Anderson and moving and pounding in the first fight but got caught by relaxing just a bit. Phone Post 3.0
7/7/14 7:42 PM
11/21/05
Posts: 6100
Moke - With the caliber of people who've been on top of him, one could say, "Easier said than done".

Removing that factor, without knowing his intentions it's hard to say. You cannot know the intention unless it is executed successfully. However, it "appears" he's never had a very offensive guard (refer to my first sentence), and Frankie's camp obviously exploited this as part of their gameplan.

For me, I don't understand why he stuck to butterfly guard when he was getting hammered and threatened with passes. Butterfly offers sweeps and get-ups, but doesn't give you submission opportunities or as much punch protection.

I was screaming at the TV for him to close his guard. Frankie was able to unload GNP on him while in butterfly.
7/7/14 7:45 PM
5/18/12
Posts: 788
Ok I understand that the quality of opposition and size in some fights, makes it difficult to do much offensively from the bottom... BUT we are talking about one of the best bjj practitioners in the entire world outside of Brazil right? Phone Post 3.0
7/7/14 7:51 PM
6/16/07
Posts: 19065
I couldn't understand why he used the butterfly yet didn't get up when he could and didn't sweep either isn't that the whole point of the butterfly guard?
7/7/14 7:54 PM
12/20/08
Posts: 7331
BJ is an enigma. He has the mindset where he has 1 game plan and if it fails, he will keep trying regardless and will not go to a plan B.

He didn't even try to defend takedowns and his strategy was to strike from the guard. He had literally zero success there and still kept going back to it instead of getting back up or attempting a sub or sweep. That along with his upright and on his toes stance was just baffling to watch as a fan.

Strategically it just made zero sense, but that's BJ Penn. He's going to do things his way regardless of what anyone else thinks.
7/7/14 8:02 PM
8/4/07
Posts: 1267
When I saw him almost let Frankie take him down in the 1st I thought for sure it was to set up a sweep to RNC....but that never came about,unfortunately. Phone Post 3.0
7/7/14 8:02 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 38257
stillmatic - BJ is an enigma. He has the mindset where he has 1 game plan and if it fails, he will keep trying regardless and will not go to a plan B.

He didn't even try to defend takedowns and his strategy was to strike from the guard. He had literally zero success there and still kept going back to it instead of getting back up or attempting a sub or sweep. That along with his upright and on his toes stance was just baffling to watch as a fan.

Strategically it just made zero sense, but that's BJ Penn. He's going to do things his way regardless of what anyone else thinks.

You know, there's actually something to be said for that, and that's what was taught when I first started training...to be relentless in what you want and never give up going after it.

When it works you look like a Goddamned genius and pitbull. But when it doesn't, people are obviously going to question why the fuck you didn't adapt.

I have always thought I recognized that in a few BJ losses...where it appeared he had a specific plan, and just because it got difficult to implement, he didn't abandoned it. He kept faith in that it would eventually work. When it didn't, obviously we question, "Why?"

They say everyone has a gameplan until they get punched in the face. I'm sure BJ knows this saying and probably tries to not let that happen...to not let his gameplan and what he trained for fall apart. But like I said, when you lose it looks highly questionable.
7/7/14 8:11 PM
11/28/03
Posts: 70390

bj has never been big on attempting subs from bottom

but i agree, its a better idea that striking from bottom

7/7/14 9:02 PM
2/22/11
Posts: 2624
And how on earth did Penn go a full camp with partners/coaches etc and no one told him to drop that weird stance/game plan?

I can't see how the style he used was any more effective in sparring/training?

it's even more mind boggling when you realize he prepared months for THAT.
7/7/14 9:07 PM
10/16/12
Posts: 8153
Mertvaya Ruka - And how on earth did Penn go a full camp with partners/coaches etc and no one told him to drop that weird stance/game plan?

I can't see how the style he used was any more effective in sparring/training?

it's even more mind boggling when you realize he prepared months for THAT.
No offense but maybe he didn't really prepare at all? Phone Post 3.0
7/7/14 9:08 PM
3/2/11
Posts: 24800

He seemed bewildered and sickly out there, the cut was worse than anyone wants to admit IMO. It sounds excusey but it's BJ he was never good at hard physical commitments, and his first time at 145 may have just taken all he had left.

7/7/14 9:09 PM
7/7/14
Posts: 0
BJ had Matt Hughes in a triangle for the last minute+ of the first round in their second fight Phone Post 3.0
7/7/14 9:12 PM
5/18/12
Posts: 790
pitviper83 - BJ had Matt Hughes in a triangle for the last minute+ of the first round in their second fight Phone Post 3.0
Thank you for pointing this out. I'll have to rewatch that fight. Phone Post 3.0
7/7/14 9:17 PM
5/18/12
Posts: 791
Guys, OP here. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear but I'm not really concerned about the last fight. There are enough threads on that already. I'm asking more about his entire career. He's one of the best and most natural bjj guys ever outside of Brazil. Yet he basically only tries to complete one submission (RNC) and has not shown an offensive bottom game. This really perplexes me. I understand he always fought top competition but it boggles my mind that he doesn't try any other submission. Even if the sole purpose is to make the top fighter focus on something other than punching his face. It would give him a better chance of escaping. Phone Post 3.0
7/7/14 9:17 PM
12/16/13
Posts: 461
He was asked to throw the fight so Frankie can fight Aug.2nd.



This aint conspiracy ground?? Phone Post 3.0
7/7/14 9:27 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 18036
pNUTBUTTER - Guys, OP here. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear but I'm not really concerned about the last fight. There are enough threads on that already. I'm asking more about his entire career. He's one of the best and most natural bjj guys ever outside of Brazil. Yet he basically only tries to complete one submission (RNC) and has not shown an offensive bottom game. This really perplexes me. I understand he always fought top competition but it boggles my mind that he doesn't try any other submission. Even if the sole purpose is to make the top fighter focus on something other than punching his face. It would give him a better chance of escaping. Phone Post 3.0

I can say from my limited experience that MMA is a different game. When you have someone ground and pound those armbars and kimuras are very difficult to come by when I'm getting popped in the face. In a reg. grapping match I can easily show up my face and be like whatever...go for moves etc...but when a guy is stronger and on top of you constantly working...I rather cover up then get popped. Additionally, BJ specializes in certain moves that work for him in MMA. Does BJJ moves sometimes doesn't translate to MMA.
7/7/14 9:28 PM
6/10/12
Posts: 2396
BJ has never really used his guard for offense.

He has always used his guard for control and that was always one of his biggest weaknesses.

With his flexibility, he had the potential to utilize a very offensive guards. Phone Post 3.0
7/7/14 9:34 PM
10/30/11
Posts: 333
Because Edgar is a wrestler and in general these days if you can't wrestle (BJ) you can't fight
7/7/14 9:45 PM
2/22/11
Posts: 2625
IAmNotImpressedbyYourStocktonSlap - 
Mertvaya Ruka - And how on earth did Penn go a full camp with partners/coaches etc and no one told him to drop that weird stance/game plan?

I can't see how the style he used was any more effective in sparring/training?

it's even more mind boggling when you realize he prepared months for THAT.
No offense but maybe he didn't really prepare at all? Phone Post 3.0

That could explain it, did we see any training footage for this fight beside the Nova Uniao stuff?

But even then, how could his corner let him do that and support him if that's the case? He was fighting a beast in FE.