UnderGround Forum >> Is Jones Black Belt Level?

Smith1234 - I think the average BJJer would be shocked at the intensity and drill work that is done in the wrestling room on a daily basis. Emphasis on technique is huge, as is conditioning.

Kid Charlemagne -

ultimately, its a lot harder to get away with poor athleticism in wrestling than it is in bjj

Kid Charlemagne -

Smith1234 -  Gomrad, exactly. The idea that in BJJ you can get by with more technique and less physical talent, wheras wrestling requires more physical talent to succeed shows a complete lack of knowledge of how wrestling works and why the people are savages that do it well.

 

complete lack of knowldege? are you saying physical ability and talent are not important for you to succeed? If its not so important, why on earth is so much emphasis on strength and conditioning.  Of all the US high school sports, the wreslers work the hardest - harder than football.  Its crazy to down play the significance of S&C in wrestling.  Absurd.

 

Let me clarify the connection, because the workouts are so grueling as gomrad can surely elaborate - people that cant hack it will quit.  Genetics play a huge role in being able to hack it.

 

Kid Charlemagne -

Gomrad - 

Kid Charlemagne -

Smith1234 -  Gomrad, exactly. The idea that in BJJ you can get by with more technique and less physical talent, wheras wrestling requires more physical talent to succeed shows a complete lack of knowledge of how wrestling works and why the people are savages that do it well.

 

complete lack of knowldege? are you saying physical ability and talent are not important for you to succeed? If its not so important, why on earth is so much emphasis on strength and conditioning.  Of all the US high school sports, the wreslers work the hardest - harder than football.  Its crazy to down play the significance of S&C in wrestling.  Absurd.

 

Let me clarify the connection, because the workouts are so grueling as gomrad can surely elaborate - people that cant hack it will quit.  Genetics play a huge role in being able to hack it.

 

I don't think is being down played more then. There are many components to a comprehensive wrestling (both instructional and program

-Drilling technique makes you "better"

-Live (sparring) makes you "tougher"

-effective stretching program for flexibility

-tumbling improves body control / awareness / scrambling

-fundamental / core strength training

-plyometric explosiveness development

-running / conditioning for "cardio"

-Visualization / mental imagery

-diet / nutrition / weight management



These are all vital areas for wholistic development in the sport of wrestling. But if you had to rank them in order the two by far most important are the two listed first... You can be the greatest athlete / physical specimen you want but without that "MAT TIME" you will get beaten every time by more seasoned (or game) opponents with less genetic or physical talent...

ok, i think im starting to understand where you're coming from.  So it is more of the culture of wrestling and the heart that it develops through hardwork that makes people successful in mma.

Gomrad -  Their are plenty of successful guys in the wrestling world that are not "natural stud athletes" or "superior genetic freaks". Guys that got to the top through countless hours of hard work sheer dedication all the while toiling in mainstream sports obscurity as a "bastard step child" if you will... The mental and physical toughness derived from growing up in this environment is what makes wrestlers a different breed. That "no respect" theme continued in the martial arts / combat sports world until MMA got going....

Most wrestlers are not anywhere close to those "4.3 40 yard dash" or the "6 foot 10 gazelle" type guys. Show me a champion wrestler and I'll show you a blue collar hard working SOB. After decades of training / competing / fighting for respect these guys are alright with beating the respect out of the fight world

hermanitor - 

Smith1234 -  I am surprised I got a several vote downs on this thread. We may not all agree, but I have been respectful and this topic has good posters on both sides, or in the middle. It is actually an interesting discussion.

I got one :) I'll wear it with pride forever.

Kid Charlemagne -

Smith1234 -  No, I am saying it is crazy for you to downplay it in BJJ. To act like in BJJ technique is enough to be great. The best wrestlers are 10s in s,and c AND technique.

If the best BJJers are not 10 in both, then they are not as good as they could be.

if i implied that bjj required zero physical ability, sorry for the confusion.  I was speaking relatively to wrestling in the sense that it is more important there than bjj.  

 

 

Kid Charlemagne -

ultimately, its a lot harder to get away with poor athleticism in wrestling than it is in bjj

Gomrad:

I can agree with that... 

Gomrad - 

Immaculata -

Gomrad - 

Immaculata - Just view Jason Scully's vid on a quick review on the Arm Bar technique. A question to the OP, Winston, Gomrad, Gannon, do you think Jon Jones could make a vid like that?? The answer is No. He's not a Brazilian Jiu Jiutsiu Black Belt. Joe Rogan is awesome but he is wrong in leading in fans for believing so.

I was content just reading and not posting but saw my name so i figured a response was in order.... Maybe Jon Jones should make a video "Successful Grappling for MMA" (would be much more applicable for this century and send it out to the BJJ schools that run no-Gi or MMA classes. This might help close the gap for the pajama wrestlers and the real wrestlers.

Pajama wrestlers and real wrestlers is a childish term. There are Wrestling Practioners and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu Practioners. They are trying to accomplish two different things. Can you try to make a valid point?

I also think it is a fair point if BJJ guys would concede that when it comes to MMA grappling supremacy

Wrestling > BJJ

Anyone willing to accept this?

Wasa-B -

Gomrad - 

Immaculata -

Gomrad - 

Immaculata - Just view Jason Scully's vid on a quick review on the Arm Bar technique. A question to the OP, Winston, Gomrad, Gannon, do you think Jon Jones could make a vid like that?? The answer is No. He's not a Brazilian Jiu Jiutsiu Black Belt. Joe Rogan is awesome but he is wrong in leading in fans for believing so.

I was content just reading and not posting but saw my name so i figured a response was in order.... Maybe Jon Jones should make a video "Successful Grappling for MMA" (would be much more applicable for this century and send it out to the BJJ schools that run no-Gi or MMA classes. This might help close the gap for the pajama wrestlers and the real wrestlers.

Pajama wrestlers and real wrestlers is a childish term. There are Wrestling Practioners and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu Practioners. They are trying to accomplish two different things. Can you try to make a valid point?

I also think it is a fair point if BJJ guys would concede that when it comes to MMA grappling supremacy

Wrestling > BJJ

Anyone willing to accept this?

Pure Wrestling < Pure BJJ

Also, how do we define "MMA grappling"? Is GNP included or on grappling in MMA alone?

I would say wrestling has been the more successful base overall for MMA not necessarily for MMA grappling.

JacT - 

Smith1234 - Before the fight, a significant portion (maybe even majority) thought Royce would beat Matt. Then, from memory, Royce got launched into space, landed in side control, almost had arm broken, desperately gave up his back and prayed for gnp instead of a choke. Take away strikes, and Riyce gets either a broken arm or put to sleep.

I would love to know what was going through Royces mind as this was happening. He went from beating people when he ”rolls” to what? Panic? Fear? Disbelief at being overwhelmed? Thinking ”just dont tap, dont tap? Thank god he just gnp me and didnt sub me?

I think that Jon is similar in credentials and performance as Matt. I mentioned Matt in OP. I thought Matt was universally respected even among BJJ set for his grappling. I didnt see a lot of peiple saying ”yeah but Almedia was rocked”. He was rocked, but people still gave Matt props for choking him out.

Jon does not get that kind of respect. I think he should. And like Royce vs Matt, I think a lot of BJJ blackbelts would have an epiphany three seconds after locking up with Jones.

I think Matt is black belt level in JJ. I DO NOT think Jon Jones is.

Matt executed wrestling and ju-jitsu perfectly against Royce from my recollection. He uses bjj positioning and submissions. Jones does not.

JacT

hermanitor - Let me say this. I am not particularly great at BJJ. Lots of people on this thread are a whole lot better than me.

I've been training for a good amount of time though, at some of the best BJJ academies in NY. I Have seen MANY incredible MMA fighters pass through to work on their jiu jitsu.

I have seen many of these same guys get tooled by the local gym hero in pure grappling. That's why the MMA fighters go there in the first place. To work on one specific aspect of their game with experts in that one particular aspect.

While MMA is much more 'fight' than BJJ. Those who study a curriculum where they are studying 100% jiu jitsu....will usually trounce those who are training boxing, kickboxing, wrestling, judo, and 20% jiu jitsu (for only like three years!)

I've seen it too many times. Frankly, I think a guy like jones would get subbed by a whole shitload of Renzo's high purples and low browns in no gi (if the opponent were of fairly similar size, same gender, Etc.)

Wrestling's not technical LOL at that

A tilt takes no technique, the guillotine (twister in BJJ) Eddie Bravo used to dominate in BJJ before he faced Royler

The 2 De La Riva Black Belts I faced didn't even get to use their DLR guard on me because it doesn't really work well without Gi

Smith1234 and Gomrad are right BJJ focuses on technique, however, Wrestlers train like Spartan Warriors

Being strong is part of the game (that should be considered part of technique) and part of training 6+ hours a day is becoming physically, mentally and technically stronger

A pre-requisite of wrestling is lifting weights visit any High School and see what Wrestlers do after practice

Compare the average Olympic Wrestler's physique compared to Judo or Jiu-Jitsu

Wrestling isn't the be all end all or else Cael Sanderson and Rulon Gardner would be cleaning house

But most of all I feel Wrestling breeds Champions because it trains heart whereas other sports don't