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Is Jones Black Belt Level?

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9/28/12 6:26 PM	Ignore \| Quote \| Edit \| Warn Admin \| Vote Down \| Vote Up \| Delete Post
Smith1234 11 Member Since: 1/2/06 Posts: 5190	Gomrad - "I don't think is being down played more then other areas. There are many components to a comprehensive wrestling program (both instructional and physical development)" Sorry I pushed post to early by accident (I am a meat head savage wrestler) Btw, when I said savage I meant it as a compliment. A philosopher savage perhaps:-) You have ignored this user.

9/28/12 6:32 PM	Ignore \| Quote \| Edit \| Warn Admin \| Vote Down \| Vote Up \| Delete Post
kevinchhay 30 Member Since: 3/25/12 Posts: 336	"Civilize the mind but make savage the body" You have ignored this user.

9/28/12 6:35 PM	Ignore \| Quote \| Edit \| Warn Admin \| Vote Down \| Vote Up \| Delete Post
kevinchhay 30 Member Since: 3/25/12 Posts: 337	So you should strive to improve physical athletic ability and technique You have ignored this user.

9/28/12 6:36 PM	Ignore \| Quote \| Edit \| Warn Admin \| Vote Down \| Vote Up \| Delete Post
tommypatron 5 Member Since: 9/25/05 Posts: 56	TTT You have ignored this user.

9/28/12 6:39 PM

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Ministry of Truth 92 The total sum of your votes up and votes down

Member Since: 8/10/05
Posts: 31260

GladiatorGannon - Also, a lot of this debate is common in Martial Arts that have sports associated with them. However, it's important to always remember that the Art is bigger than the Sport. The Art includes the sport (not the other way around) but is not limited to the sport.

Gi Sport Jiujitsu skills - yes part of BJJ

No Gi skills - yes also part of jiujitsu. People used to argue this here, but nowaday even the IBJF sanctions a No Gi Mundials.

Takedowns - Yes, this is an integral part of the art (even if every practitioner is not a master). Even if you're a highly tranked competitor, your Brazilian Jiu Jitsu for self defense may be weak if you lack in this area.

GnP - both defending and attacking - Yes, this is part of jiujitsu. In the early 90s, preventing people from hitting me, and guard passes with punches were some my very first jiujitsu lessons at my local Rickson Affiliate. In fact, I don't think there is another art out there that teaches PnP as effectivelty and completely as BJJ. Again, not everyone in BJJ is an expert at it, but it's certainly part of the art, and there is no art that does it better than BJJ.

Submission Defense - Yes, this is part of jiujitsu. Contrary to popular opinion, wrestling doens't teach sub defense, strong BJJ top game with good sub defense is simply the BJJ game most commonly developed by ex-wrestlers (for obvious reasons).

Certain self defense applications that have nothing to do with any sporting context on the mat or in the cage - dealing with eye gouges, weapons etc. - Yes, also part of jiujitsu. This is a complete self defense art in addition to having a couple of different sports inside of it.

It's a big art, and you can certainly be a legitimate BB without being an elite master in every aspect listed above.

"GnP - both defending and attacking - Yes, this is part of jiujitsu. In the early 90s, preventing people from hitting me, and guard passes with punches were some my very first jiujitsu lessons at my local Rickson Affiliate. In fact, I don't think there is another art out there that teaches PnP as effectivelty and completely as BJJ. Again, not everyone in BJJ is an expert at it, but it's certainly part of the art, and there is no art that does it better than BJJ."

Same here. I started and worked my way to blue belt at a GB academy, which focused on the self-defense portion of BJJ during white belt classes.

Sadly, I have trained many other schools (well known ones too), and most completely neglected to teach the self-defense portion of BJJ, to instead focus 100% on sport BJJ.

I think that even if a school is 100% focused on teaching sport BJJ for competition sake, there should still be an obligation to teach simple stuff, like standing choke defense, defending an attack while getting up from your back, etc. What's the purpose of learning a martial art to only master techniques that win tournaments? In a sense, it's not much better than "learning" karate via a point-fighting system.

9/28/12 6:54 PM

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Winston Wolf

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 32811

GladiatorGannon - Also, a lot of this debate is common in Martial Arts that have sports associated with them. However, it's important to always remember that the Art is bigger than the Sport. The Art includes the sport (not the other way around) but is not limited to the sport.

Gi Sport Jiujitsu skills - yes part of BJJ

No Gi skills - yes also part of jiujitsu. People used to argue this here, but nowaday even the IBJF sanctions a No Gi Mundials.

Takedowns - Yes, this is an integral part of the art (even if every practitioner is not a master). Even if you're a highly tranked competitor, your Brazilian Jiu Jitsu for self defense may be weak if you lack in this area.

GnP - both defending and attacking - Yes, this is part of jiujitsu. In the early 90s, preventing people from hitting me, and guard passes with punches were some my very first jiujitsu lessons at my local Rickson Affiliate. In fact, I don't think there is another art out there that teaches PnP as effectivelty and completely as BJJ. Again, not everyone in BJJ is an expert at it, but it's certainly part of the art, and there is no art that does it better than BJJ.

Submission Defense - Yes, this is part of jiujitsu. Contrary to popular opinion, wrestling doens't teach sub defense, strong BJJ top game with good sub defense is simply the BJJ game most commonly developed by ex-wrestlers (for obvious reasons).

Certain self defense applications that have nothing to do with any sporting context on the mat or in the cage - dealing with eye gouges, weapons etc. - Yes, also part of jiujitsu. This is a complete self defense art in addition to having a couple of different sports inside of it.

It's a big art, and you can certainly be a legitimate BB without being an elite master in every aspect listed above.

good post/Id vote it up but used mine for today .

9/28/12 6:59 PM

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hermanitor

Member Since: 4/11/08
Posts: 3084

Winston Wolf -
hermanitor -
Smith1234 - Jact, if Jones is not using BJJ subs, what kind of subs is he using? And what kind of top play and guard play is he using?

Usually BJJ guys are arguing with people about how various things wrestlers and others do is BJJ (taking credit ao to speak) so it is refreshing to hear you say he is not using BJJ positioning or subs.

Subs in MMA after beating up an opponent...does not equal jiu jitsu.

Jiu jitsu equals jiu jitsu. Subs are subs.

No one is saying Jones is not using BJJ. What they are saying is that his BJJ is not blackbelt level simply because jones has subbed blackbelts **in MMA*

MMA is not BJJ. I don't understand why so many are still having this issue, frankly.

ok same question to u.If its soo soo commen for BJJers to get subbed because its MMA not BJJ name 10 times it happened ? i gave u 7 ?? Ill wait for ur reply

Dude, Matt Hughes has subbed SEVERAL (4-5, I believe)himself. Do you think he'd sub Ricardo ALmaeda (sp) in a BJJ match? The dude Subbed Royce, and tooled Renzo too.

Forrest griffin subbed shogun. NOG (one of the best) recently got his arm ripped to pieces.

Barrnett has subbed several. Sakuraba has too. SO has Jon Jones.

I think you're asking a rather silly question. Blackbelts getting subbed in MMA is nothing new, or unusual.

I'm not sure what you're beef is, but the claim that BJJ blackbelts can get subbed in MMA after getting punched in the face for three rounds....isn't exactly hard to swallow.

Why are you hell bent on this strange denial?

9/28/12 7:11 PM

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hermanitor

Member Since: 4/11/08
Posts: 3085

GladiatorGannon -
hermanitor - Let me say this. I am not particularly great at BJJ. Lots of people on this thread are a whole lot better than me.

I've been training for a good amount of time though, at some of the best BJJ academies in NY. I Have seen MANY incredible MMA fighters pass through to work on their jiu jitsu.

I have seen many of these same guys get tooled by the local gym hero in pure grappling. That's why the MMA fighters go there in the first place. To work on one specific aspect of their game with experts in that one particular aspect.

While MMA is much more 'fight' than BJJ. Those who study a curriculum where they are studying 100% jiu jitsu....will usually trounce those who are training boxing, kickboxing, wrestling, judo, and 20% jiu jitsu (for only like three years!)

I've seen it too many times. Frankly, I think a guy like jones would get subbed by a whole shitload of Renzo's high purples and low browns in no gi (if the opponent were of fairly similar size, same gender, Etc.)

I'm sure he's got some elite competitive browns that might be up to the task, but I have a hard time seeing him getting tapped by a purple in a grappling comp. JJ is around 230 when he competes, so lets limit it to HWs. John Jones gets the take down (yes, takedowns are part of jiujitsu, even if every practictioner isn't that good at them). A guy with reach and savvy of Jones is unlikely to get guard pulled, and will likely hit the ground (with great velocity) on top of you and in a very dominant side control and ahead on points. Do you really think a purple is capable of getting someone like Jones off of them and subbing him before time runs out?

I really think equal sized purples who tangle with Jones not only do well with him, but probably sub him. Again, equal sized. Also, why assume Jones would get a takedown into side control? In pure grappling competitions at the higher levels,that is extremely rare.

Besides, in a pure BJJ tournie the opponent can butt flop any time. I think we've both seen matches at ADCC, Naga, Grapplers quest, Etc. when the BJJ guy goes "ah fuck, a wrestler, I'm not getting slammed on my head, no thanks! *epic butt flop*

I think jones has lots of reach, but at this point, very little savoy. It would be too easy for a guy like jones to be caught in gimmick moves. Stupid shit, omoplata toe holds, rolling knee bars, wrist locks and what not, based solely on his lack of experience. If you've never seen it, you'll never seen it coming. At a mere three years of training, there is a lot he has not seen, and thus a lot he gets caught in.

According to Jones BJJ coach, this is the case. He claims that Jones is white belt caliber in a Gi. He claims that jones loses to BJJ guys a lot in No Gi. He has said this in several interviews I've seen

I'm taking his word for it!

9/28/12 8:14 PM	Ignore \| Quote \| Edit \| Warn Admin \| Vote Down \| Vote Up \| Delete Post
Winston Wolf Member Since: 1/1/01 Posts: 32812	equally sized purples sub JOnes ? pallleeeeese You have ignored this user.

9/28/12 8:15 PM	Ignore \| Quote \| Edit \| Warn Admin \| Vote Down \| Vote Up \| Delete Post
Winston Wolf Member Since: 1/1/01 Posts: 32813	Hughes subbed Almieda who else ? u said 4 or 5 You have ignored this user.

9/28/12 8:36 PM	Ignore \| Quote \| Edit \| Warn Admin \| Vote Down \| Vote Up \| Delete Post
kevinchhay 30 Member Since: 3/25/12 Posts: 338	The point is Matt Hughes would sub Almeida, Renzo and Royce over again if they fought (I think that's what he's trying to explain) Hughes accredits most of his experience to Wrestling You have ignored this user.

9/28/12 8:43 PM	Ignore \| Quote \| Edit \| Warn Admin \| Vote Down \| Vote Up \| Delete Post
Winston Wolf Member Since: 1/1/01 Posts: 32816	Hughes didnt sub Renzo or Royce but did win convinsingly.Jones is 25 and has plenty of subs against high level fighters.And Im sure his grappling game will only get better Dont understnd why hes being put under a microscope You have ignored this user.

9/28/12 8:46 PM	Ignore \| Quote \| Edit \| Warn Admin \| Vote Down \| Vote Up \| Delete Post
kevinchhay 30 Edited: 09/28/12 8:46 PM Member Since: 3/25/12 Posts: 339	Sorry, I'm tired I believe he would though just my opinion You have ignored this user.

9/28/12 8:56 PM

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Ministry of Truth 92 The total sum of your votes up and votes down

Member Since: 8/10/05
Posts: 31262

kevinchhay -
The point is Matt Hughes would sub Almeida, Renzo and Royce over again if they fought (I think that's what he's trying to explain)

Hughes accredits most of his experience to Wrestling

If the submission comes after stunning them, that still doesn't make him on their level, grappling-wise.

I know if I were to hit Mariusz Pudzianowski in the head with a baseball bat full force, I could lift more than him right at that moment. Does that mean I am as strong as him?

9/28/12 9:03 PM	Ignore \| Quote \| Edit \| Warn Admin \| Vote Down \| Vote Up \| Delete Post
kevinchhay 30 Edited: 09/28/12 9:03 PM Member Since: 3/25/12 Posts: 340	Now, if they were just grappling I see Hughes scoring the takedown and not getting tapped Fowler went against Renzo and beat him I never got a chance to go against him but I was close on more than one occassion You have ignored this user.

9/28/12 9:09 PM	Ignore \| Quote \| Edit \| Warn Admin \| Vote Down \| Vote Up \| Delete Post
kevinchhay 30 Member Since: 3/25/12 Posts: 341	I consider punches a submission I think that's where symantex gets involved You have ignored this user.

9/28/12 9:16 PM	Ignore \| Quote \| Edit \| Warn Admin \| Vote Down \| Vote Up \| Delete Post
kevinchhay 30 Member Since: 3/25/12 Posts: 342	Josh Barnett won Mundials am I correct? CSW represent You have ignored this user.

9/28/12 9:53 PM

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Smith1234 11 The total sum of your votes up and votes down

Member Since: 1/2/06
Posts: 5193

Even though MMA = / = BJJ, thought it was interesting to compare Jon's UFC sub list to top LHWs, from BJJ BBs to unranked BJJ guys. Maybe it is hard to get these subs, even if you beat someone up first.

Jones (25 years old) - Jake Obrien, Bader, Jackson, Machida, Vitor (excluded 1 pre-UFC)

Vitor (35) - Telligman, Joe Charles (this was the no striking fight I believe), Bobby Southworth, Anthony Johnson. Only subbed by Jon and Overeem

Machida (34) - Mike McDonald, Sokoudjou. Only subbed by Jon Jones.

Arona (34) Kanehara, Ignatov.

Wandy (36) - Dirty Bob

Shogun (30) - Randleman. Subbed by Babalu and Forrest

Little Nog (36) - Fugi, Imamura, Nak, Hendo

Chuck, Hendo, Randy - not close even combined.

This is just a sampling.

9/28/12 9:54 PM	Ignore \| Quote \| Edit \| Warn Admin \| Vote Down \| Vote Up \| Delete Post
Smith1234 11 Member Since: 1/2/06 Posts: 5194	Does Jon already have the best list of sub victims in the history of the MMA at 205? You have ignored this user.

9/28/12 10:02 PM

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kevinchhay 30 The total sum of your votes up and votes down

Edited: 09/28/12 10:09 PM
Member Since: 3/25/12
Posts: 343

Does Matt Hughes think George St. Pierre is a good Wrestler? No, he publicly stated so

I don't think Canada would want him to Wrestle for their Olympic Team if he wasn't good or anyone would entertain the idea

Bj Penn got taken down and severely outwrestled by GSP despite BJ Penn being known for his anti-wrestling ability

Funniest part is Matt Hughes said BJ should've won against GSP and Josh Koscheck would outwrestle GSP

GSP got taken down by Koscheck first round and then he recovered and got a double leg takedown on Koscheck 4th round

Josh Koscheck said he doesn't think Matt Hughes can take him in wrestling

Do you see where I'm getting at here?

We all have our own opinions

9/28/12 10:03 PM	Ignore \| Quote \| Edit \| Warn Admin \| Vote Down \| Vote Up \| Delete Post
Winston Wolf Member Since: 1/1/01 Posts: 32817	agreed opinions mean nothing once the match starts You have ignored this user.

9/29/12 12:20 AM

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WestsideStrangler 46 The total sum of your votes up and votes down

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 10312

GladiatorGannon -
WestsideStrangler -
GladiatorGannon -
dlong949 - What about Kimbo Slice?

Not the same caliber as these guys. Would win white belt divisions and most blues on athleticism and strength, lose against solid purples/elite blues.

As for myself - I won the NAGA World Title in the Intermediate Division...and again at the Advanced Division. The level of grappling in the UFC is so high that even many of the "bad" grapplers at that level would horribly trounce the "good" grapplers at your gym. Not the elite grappling competitors, but a guy you think is "good" at grappling in your area might be horribly manhandled by those guys.

Funny you say that cuz 99% of the time I watch the UFC I think the ground sucks shit and that's why al,ost every single fighter fights for their life not to go to the ground. Or when they get there they fight for their life ot get back up.

All due respect to the great Chris Brennan, but where exactly are you going with that? If you're fighting for your life to not go to the ground, it's because the other guys ground game is so good. Likewise for trying to get up. Why the heck do you think the guy wants to get up so bad? It's the UFC, if someone like Nog has you down, it's usually a good idea to get up...even if you're "blackbelt level" :)

First off I nevr said I was great. Second off there are just as many BB's trying to keep it on the feet. It's a sport now and MMA is the style. BB doesn't mean a ton in the cage anymore.unless you happen to land in a perfect position. otherwise the guy is climbing the cage like he's escaping a shark tank to get away from you.

9/29/12 1:28 AM	Ignore \| Quote \| Edit \| Warn Admin \| Vote Down \| Vote Up \| Delete Post
GladiatorGannon 190 Member Since: 9/1/04 Posts: 19843	First off I never said I was great. You didn't, I did. You are a legitimate Old School Badass UFC/Pride/Shooto vet that took former champ Militech to a draw. I also liked your instructional tapes and got a lot out of them. You have ignored this user.

9/29/12 2:20 AM

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Bisping decisioned my SN

Member Since: 8/7/11
Posts: 995

priestcraft - No, i dont think so. I would say he's "google smart" when it comes to bjj. He probably knows all the general bjj moves and how to execute them, but the idiosyncrasies and muscle memory that only comes from years of bjj he can't possibly have. Anytime someone becomes a BB after 2-3yrs, i cringe.

I think your spot on... but obviously that's not to say that in the cage he can't submit bb by using all the diff tools he has. Phone Post

9/29/12 2:55 PM	Ignore \| Quote \| Edit \| Warn Admin \| Vote Down \| Vote Up \| Delete Post
kevinchhay 30 Member Since: 3/25/12 Posts: 344	I'd have to say Jon Jones is the same level because he would compete on the same even platform Tito Ortiz doesn't even rep Jiu-Jitsu but did very well in ADCC (Bronze like Vitor) and went against Ricardo Arona, Matt Hughes and so on.... They would matched him up against other Black Belt and Black Belt Level guys You have ignored this user.

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