Michigan Underground >> Fake belts!!

Angelo Popofski - 

ashleigh11 - i thought i'd throw my two cents in since i know matt.

matt is a black belt in shido-kan karate under seikichi iha. i have seen the certificate and talked to people matt trained with and it's legit. i believe he was given a brown belt by dan smith, although i don't know if it was in ju jitsu or dans "house martial art". he lived in iowa and trained with miletich for about 8 months but he never got a belt from pat. it saddens me that we would misrepresent himself as a bjj black belt because i know for a fact that he is not.

matt is a legit fighter, a creative grappler, and a good teacher. it's too bad he doesn't let that speak for itself. he was rashad's original trainer that got him to the ultimate fighter and that in itself is something to be proud of.

I agree 100% with you...apparently the new trend in Michigan is that if you've been around as long as those of us who really have BJJ black belts, then you have the right to say you are one too.

ashleigh, thanks for adding to what most of us agree with.

lansingbjj - I was planning on sitting back and not chiming in, but after some news if figured I would give my two cents.

Being a BJJ practitioner and instructor/coach myself,my issues come with the blurring of the lines between being a certified belt level in BJJ vs. someones own 'system'. Today I heard that Matt had promoted one of his students to purple belt, who is also 14. When I asked one of his parents if it was in BJJ, they told me "yes". This is where I start to take issue with things as a whole. Not only in my mind is a 14 year old not ready for a blue belt, let alone a purple (I have heard that most instructors will not promote to blue until the student is 16), the idea that even if Matt was a brown belt, he doesn't have the authority to even promote to a purple. Also, it is all no-gi. I guess if he was clarifying to everyone that his student was a purple belt in the "Matt Torres fighting system", then I would gladly accept it.

While I usually do not bother myself with these types of things, and I certainly don't have any personal issues with Matt, when I hear things like this it seems to discount all of the hard work that people like myself have put in, under great scrutiny, to obtain the ranks that we are in BJJ. My students themselves are promoted through an affiliation with another school so I can avoid these exact types of questions from other higher ranked instructors, because I am only a 4 stripe blue belt myself.

I guess I felt this as a little bit of a slap in the face, and the sting is still there. I really work hard in life not to let things like this bother me, but sometimes it's hard to avoid.

Train hard, train safe.

Kforcer - I don't think anyone can deny that Matt Torres is pretty good though.

Paul Clark was a BJJ brown belt as well, I think he lives around Detroit now. Far as I know, he hasn't been training for a while. He is definitely very good.

BigDawgCrab - So last night I go to a very good amature mma show in Lansing MI.

While there I run into a guy named DALE KINNER. This guy has been running around Lansing telling people he is 2nd degree Blackbelt in BJJ. Being a blackbelt myself, I was interested in meeting him.

To clarify matters I asked if is a blackbelt in BJJ and he said yes. I asked who gave him his blackbelt and he said, Carlson Gracie Jr. To make sure I asked if he meant JR in Chicago and he said yes.

Well,,,, I grabbed my phone and called Jr while standing with DALE KINNER. Dale said, Good luck and walked away when he saw me calling Jr.

I followed him and spoke with Jr who said he has never heard of DALE KINNER and asked to speak with Dale. I went into a room where Dale was and told him Jr wanted to speak with him and he said no he didn't want to speak with the guy who gave him his blackbelt!!!

DALE KINNER in Lansing Michigan, 517-230-0314 was the number for the gym he gave me.

I also saw a sign for Matt Torres and Brad Johnson who claimed to be brown belts in BJJ. I spoke with Matt for a few seconds. He had a weird story about training with Miletich, so I asked if Miletich had given him his brown belt and he said no. Then he mentioned training with Ciaque BJJ. I asked if he got his brown belt from Ciaque and he said no. Then he explained that he is a "equivalant" of a brown belt because he has tapped every blackbelt he has ever trained with!!

Matt introduced me to some older man, and quickly left the room. This other guy then told me that Matt is the real deal and has tapped Miletich in 30 seconds! Told me how Matt can tape any blackbelt in the UFC in under 1 minute. He then told me that they look at belts differently then most... he explained that the color doesn't matter to them, just the results... I asked why they advertise being brown belts... I was (again) explained that Matt has trained with UFC level fighters, even made Rashad Evans what he is today, and has tapped them all!!!

This older guy asked where I got my blackbelt and I said, Jorge Gurgel. He told me Matt and Brandon could tap JG out in 30 seconds. I told him that JG would be in Grand Rapids this coming weekend and they should come train!!!

I was then told about cost to train at this place... $99 a month for 1 1 1/2 training session a week upto $250 for 3 1 1/2 hour training sessions a week!!!!

CoachK - 

BigDawgCrab - So last night I go to a very good amature mma show in Lansing MI.

While there I run into a guy named DALE KINNER. This guy has been running around Lansing telling people he is 2nd degree Blackbelt in BJJ. Being a blackbelt myself, I was interested in meeting him.

To clarify matters I asked if is a blackbelt in BJJ and he said yes. I asked who gave him his blackbelt and he said, Carlson Gracie Jr. To make sure I asked if he meant JR in Chicago and he said yes.

Well,,,, I grabbed my phone and called Jr while standing with DALE KINNER. Dale said, Good luck and walked away when he saw me calling Jr.

I followed him and spoke with Jr who said he has never heard of DALE KINNER and asked to speak with Dale. I went into a room where Dale was and told him Jr wanted to speak with him and he said no he didn't want to speak with the guy who gave him his blackbelt!!!

DALE KINNER in Lansing Michigan, 517-230-0314 was the number for the gym he gave me.

I also saw a sign for Matt Torres and Brad Johnson who claimed to be brown belts in BJJ. I spoke with Matt for a few seconds. He had a weird story about training with Miletich, so I asked if Miletich had given him his brown belt and he said no. Then he mentioned training with Ciaque BJJ. I asked if he got his brown belt from Ciaque and he said no. Then he explained that he is a "equivalant" of a brown belt because he has tapped every blackbelt he has ever trained with!!

Matt introduced me to some older man, and quickly left the room. This other guy then told me that Matt is the real deal and has tapped Miletich in 30 seconds! Told me how Matt can tape any blackbelt in the UFC in under 1 minute. He then told me that they look at belts differently then most... he explained that the color doesn't matter to them, just the results... I asked why they advertise being brown belts... I was (again) explained that Matt has trained with UFC level fighters, even made Rashad Evans what he is today, and has tapped them all!!!

This older guy asked where I got my blackbelt and I said, Jorge Gurgel. He told me Matt and Brandon could tap JG out in 30 seconds. I told him that JG would be in Grand Rapids this coming weekend and they should come train!!!

I was then told about cost to train at this place... $99 a month for 1 1 1/2 training session a week upto $250 for 3 1 1/2 hour training sessions a week!!!!

Hey Clint! FYI- I have never charged one of the students I have trained... ever. I have been a Pit fighter my entire adult life, and had you stuck around to actually chat civilly before going on with your pompous charade of eliteness.. you would have heard me say I did a VIDEO Black Belt course produced by Carlson Gracie Junior through Panther Productions Video. I also informed them (all around me) that I had studied videos by Mario Sperry, Walid Ishmail, Oleg Taktarov, and Bas Rutten. I studied, trained... then fought anyone who stepped up thereafter. No GI required, and I have never refused a fight. I retired at 36, and have retired now from coaching at 46... BUT... I offered to come out of retirement to fight you.

You instead chose to fight an Amatuer on Ron Deleon's Show 03/13/10, (who only had 4 fights) and got knocked out in the first minute of the first round. Then only after you took a cheap shot at him, but as you took him down, he escaped and... well... you know the rest.

The point Clint, is that champions are not made with belts... they are made with heart & determination, respect and self discipline. It is what you should be teaching your people, instead of pompous pride and looking down on others. Many coaches have gathered to teach these kids self discipline and respect, and give them a leg upon life. Also to respect ALL fighters,and all human beings. You have belittled these coaches, to promote your own reputation and business. Well, for us it is not a business. It is a way of life. Honor is not found in a GI, or in a Belt. Watch as Matt Hughes defeated Royce Gracie to see honor. He respected and praised Royce, even as he destroyed him. And Matt Hughes had no BJJ Black Belt as he defeated the most prominent & recognized BJJ mixed martial artist known in our time.

You have belittled your fellow coaches, you have misquoted then,and mis-represented your fighting & coaching.It is funny, that you mentioned one of your fighters beat one of mine that night... my debut guy with 2 months training. You mentioned that my female fighter lost to yours... again, my debut fighter, and my adopted daughter, as she fought Jen Kelly, the reigning champ and most dominant female in the state. You FORGOT to mention however, that my 6 months trained Welter-weight had a WAR with your Purple Belt, and crushed him and beat him until he had to be carried from the ring. Also that 3 of my other fighters had knock-out victories that night.

You have accused others and myself of being frauds. In the end, the truth has proven out.

Again, I hope you have learned something from this.

It is a lesson you,and others like you need to learn.

Dale Kinner
Wolf Pack Vale Tudo

CoachK - 

BigDawgCrab - So last night I go to a very good amature mma show in Lansing MI.

While there I run into a guy named DALE KINNER. This guy has been running around Lansing telling people he is 2nd degree Blackbelt in BJJ. Being a blackbelt myself, I was interested in meeting him.

To clarify matters I asked if is a blackbelt in BJJ and he said yes. I asked who gave him his blackbelt and he said, Carlson Gracie Jr. To make sure I asked if he meant JR in Chicago and he said yes.

Well,,,, I grabbed my phone and called Jr while standing with DALE KINNER. Dale said, Good luck and walked away when he saw me calling Jr.

I followed him and spoke with Jr who said he has never heard of DALE KINNER and asked to speak with Dale. I went into a room where Dale was and told him Jr wanted to speak with him and he said no he didn't want to speak with the guy who gave him his blackbelt!!!

DALE KINNER in Lansing Michigan, 517-230-0314 was the number for the gym he gave me.

I also saw a sign for Matt Torres and Brad Johnson who claimed to be brown belts in BJJ. I spoke with Matt for a few seconds. He had a weird story about training with Miletich, so I asked if Miletich had given him his brown belt and he said no. Then he mentioned training with Ciaque BJJ. I asked if he got his brown belt from Ciaque and he said no. Then he explained that he is a "equivalant" of a brown belt because he has tapped every blackbelt he has ever trained with!!

Matt introduced me to some older man, and quickly left the room. This other guy then told me that Matt is the real deal and has tapped Miletich in 30 seconds! Told me how Matt can tape any blackbelt in the UFC in under 1 minute. He then told me that they look at belts differently then most... he explained that the color doesn't matter to them, just the results... I asked why they advertise being brown belts... I was (again) explained that Matt has trained with UFC level fighters, even made Rashad Evans what he is today, and has tapped them all!!!

This older guy asked where I got my blackbelt and I said, Jorge Gurgel. He told me Matt and Brandon could tap JG out in 30 seconds. I told him that JG would be in Grand Rapids this coming weekend and they should come train!!!

I was then told about cost to train at this place... $99 a month for 1 1 1/2 training session a week upto $250 for 3 1 1/2 hour training sessions a week!!!!

Hey Clint! FYI- I have never charged one of the students I have trained... ever. I have been a Pit fighter my entire adult life, and had you stuck around to actually chat civilly before going on with your pompous charade of eliteness.. you would have heard me say I did a VIDEO Black Belt course produced by Carlson Gracie Junior through Panther Productions Video. I also informed them (all around me) that I had studied videos by Mario Sperry, Walid Ishmail, Oleg Taktarov, and Bas Rutten. I studied, trained... then fought anyone who stepped up thereafter. No GI required, and I have never refused a fight. I retired at 36, and have retired now from coaching at 46... BUT... I offered to come out of retirement to fight you.

You instead chose to fight an Amatuer on Ron Deleon's Show 03/13/10, (who only had 4 fights) and got knocked out in the first minute of the first round. Then only after you took a cheap shot at him, but as you took him down, he escaped and... well... you know the rest.

The point Clint, is that champions are not made with belts... they are made with heart & determination, respect and self discipline. It is what you should be teaching your people, instead of pompous pride and looking down on others. Many coaches have gathered to teach these kids self discipline and respect, and give them a leg upon life. Also to respect ALL fighters,and all human beings. You have belittled these coaches, to promote your own reputation and business. Well, for us it is not a business. It is a way of life. Honor is not found in a GI, or in a Belt. Watch as Matt Hughes defeated Royce Gracie to see honor. He respected and praised Royce, even as he destroyed him. And Matt Hughes had no BJJ Black Belt as he defeated the most prominent & recognized BJJ mixed martial artist known in our time.

You have belittled your fellow coaches, you have misquoted then,and mis-represented your fighting & coaching.It is funny, that you mentioned one of your fighters beat one of mine that night... my debut guy with 2 months training. You mentioned that my female fighter lost to yours... again, my debut fighter, and my adopted daughter, as she fought Jen Kelly, the reigning champ and most dominant female in the state. You FORGOT to mention however, that my 6 months trained Welter-weight had a WAR with your Purple Belt, and crushed him and beat him until he had to be carried from the ring. Also that 3 of my other fighters had knock-out victories that night.

You have accused others and myself of being frauds. In the end, the truth has proven out.

Again, I hope you have learned something from this.

It is a lesson you,and others like you need to learn.

Dale Kinner
Wolf Pack Vale Tudo

CoachK - Hey Clint! FYI- I have never charged one of the students I have trained... ever

CoachK - I have been a Pit fighter my entire adult life

CoachK - had you stuck around to actually chat civilly before going on with your pompous charade of eliteness.. you would have heard me say I did a VIDEO Black Belt course produced by Carlson Gracie Junior through Panther Productions Video. I also informed them (all around me) that I had studied videos by Mario Sperry, Walid Ishmail, Oleg Taktarov, and Bas Rutten. I studied, trained... then fought anyone who stepped up thereafter. No GI required

Coach K - have retired now from coaching at 46... BUT... I offered to come out of retirement to fight you.

You instead chose to fight an Amatuer on Ron Deleon's Show 03/13/10, (who only had 4 fights) and got knocked out in the first minute of the first round. Then only after you took a cheap shot at him, but as you took him down, he escaped and... well... you know the rest.

CoachK - Also to respect ALL fighters,and all human beings. You have belittled these coaches, to promote your own reputation and business. Well, for us it is not a business. It is a way of life. Honor is not found in a GI, or in a Belt. Watch as Matt Hughes defeated Royce Gracie to see honor

CoachK - You have belittled your fellow coaches, you have misquoted then,and mis-represented your fighting & coaching.It is funny, that you mentioned one of your fighters beat one of mine that night... my debut guy with 2 months training. You mentioned that my female fighter lost to yours... again, my debut fighter, and my adopted daughter, as she fought Jen Kelly, the reigning champ and most dominant female in the state. You FORGOT to mention however, that my 6 months trained Welter-weight had a WAR with your Purple Belt, and crushed him and beat him until he had to be carried from the ring. Also that 3 of my other fighters had knock-out victories that night.

glock4life - <b> "Dale Kinner was involved in pit fighting from the time he was 14 years old. Pit fighting is organized, underground fighting with no rules and no arena. The fighting often attracted a crowd putting hefty wagers on the most promising fighters. Kinner says he was frequently bet against because he was small but often proved dissenters wrong. Kinner later became involved in kickboxing, a helpful skill now that he coaches MMA fighters."


</b>Didn't I see this in a movie!?!?