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GeekGround >> Discussion on Intelligence & Prep-time in Comics
| 6/1/12 10:47 PM | |
MarkRobinson
370 
Member Since: 4/5/07 Posts: 10273 |
Say for instance we take Mr Fantastic vs Goku. Reed has somehow seen all of the events of DBZ. He knows a fight with Goku is going to happen soon. Goku also knows Reed Richards. Should he be smart enough to defeat Goku? |
| 6/2/12 1:22 AM | |
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BigWilliam
125
Member Since: 3/7/05 Posts: 18430 |
Reed would realize how much dbz sucks and go fishing instead. |
| 6/2/12 2:57 AM | |
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Leigh
322
Member Since: 1/1/01 Posts: 27644 |
Reed should absolutely be able to beat goku with enough prep time. But he would probably need a few months or even a couple of years to defeat someone that powerful My logic here is, if a giant meteor was headed to earth, it would take that long to come up with a counter measure and goku is an even bigger threat Regarding the physics of hulk pushing tectonic plates, I would prefer comics to make more of an effort to not be illogical, whilst still keeping super powers. Problem is, as already mentioned, most writers don't have the education. Sometimes an effort is made, like Reed punching really hard cos he shifts 70% of his mass, but that's pointless cos any decent boxer does more than that 
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| 6/2/12 6:54 AM | |
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MarkRobinson
370
Member Since: 4/5/07 Posts: 10274 |
I like the idea that Paw mentioned about having specialized fields of interest. I think perhaps those should be a larger focus when writing the characters. maybe its already is in some ways. Recently in ASM, Reed was described as a combination of Indiana jones and Einstein. For the most part, i like that. His interests are more aligned with exploration and discovering the secrets of the multiverse. One might say that idea is his characters prime motivator. He creates weapons out of necessity. or creates tools when confronted with adversity. So him being as prepared for battle as Stark could be argued as being against his characters nature. Hes not as paranoid as Batman so hes not planning for someone to turn crazy and attack. Instead, when theres no immediate danger, his attention is on trying to find a path into some microuniverse or whatever similar endeavor That seems right but what I think it comes down to is that characters like Reed have extremely enhanced cognitive capacity. Meaning he can learn just about anything with tremendous ease. Mastering fields in hours. Hell, Reed claims he knows more about Pym Particles than Hank Pym. Maybe that wasnt the initial idea when the character was created but this has been established over the decades. Reeds type of genius is different than what were familar with in real life. Its more than just being an Stephen Hawking or Niels Borh. Its also more than being some type of Rainman mathematical idiot savant or a Good Will Hunting. Its closer to the movie Powder. Obviously hyper intelligence shouldnt mean they know absolutely everything. But judging from way thyre written historically, the highest tier of intelligent characters should be able to pretty much solve any type of problems. Is it too late to reel these guys intelligence back in to a more specialized fields of knowledge? more inline with the type of genius' we see in the real world? I think so. It would be like making it so Hulk cant lift anything outside of the laws of leverage. That would drastically reduce the character from a state of grace theyve had for decades. Its fucked up though. Because with that idea, these guys would know everything by now. They would have tons of weapons that theyve created over the years. Tons of defenses for every possible threat. Its like when Spider-Man told Mary Jane that he had a way to stop hulk but it would kill him. Really? i mean, sure Pete is smart but really? I guess if Reed drained gamma from Hulk in the past and Silver Surfer can also drain gamma...then sure. But really? cmon now. It gets crazy. When it comes down to it, i think thats what we dont like. That the hyper intelligence power makes it so the traditionally high tier threats just wouldnt be that big of a threat in many cases. It has too much leeway for Batman to not only beat the Hulk but to do it with relative ease in a manner of months. With that in mind, why wouldnt Stark have done the same. Then in contrast, you have to keep building up hulk to be able to overcome those same devices. its a vicious cycle. And then look at the hyper-intelligence shown by Lex Luthor in Superman: Red Son book. He was so smart he could convince a person to commit suicide in a manner of minutes. All the smart guys with the higher cognitive capacity should be able to learn that ability, right? Not only is super intelligence hard to write, if used in the manner that is implied, these guys clearly fit right into the highest tier of non-godlike characters. I think thats definitely not what the plan was when strength and speed were the focal points of who was the most powerful. But in light of smarter writers, the smarter characters have become more powerful. I mean, how hard should it be for the smartest person in the world to outsmart someone as simple as Goku? |
| 6/2/12 6:57 AM | |
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MarkRobinson
370
Member Since: 4/5/07 Posts: 10275 |
Sorry for the FRATs guys. When i type this shit out it just kinda keeps flowing. I appreciate having a forum to discuss this type of shit/ and more importantly, i appreciate having a group of people with opinions that i value to discuss these subjects. |
| 6/2/12 1:50 PM | |
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Kneeblock
153
Member Since: 1/1/01 Posts: 31264 |
MarkRobinson - Say for instance we take Mr Fantastic vs Goku. Anytime you bring up Goku, you take me right out of the thread. F DBZ!!! |
| 6/2/12 2:03 PM | |
Zenoplata
117
Member Since: 6/14/10 Posts: 7405 |
MarkRobinson - Say for instance we take Mr Fantastic vs Goku. I think not being able to defeat Goku is more of a compliment to a character than anything else. If you were to be able to beat Goku that means your character is just as stupid as the idea of Goku is. It's so childish they even match up different characters in terms of numbers. Piccolo is a million powerful!! Oh yeah!? Well Vegeta is a BILLION powerful!!! WELL THEN GOHAN IS 5 TRILLION POWERFUL!!!! THEN GOKU IS A INFINITY PLUS 1 POWERFUL!!! DERRRRP!!! |
| 6/2/12 2:12 PM | |
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Zenoplata
117
Member Since: 6/14/10 Posts: 7406 |
I'm fine with them being able to build counters for other characters. I'm not fine with them working 100% of the time, and not being shown to actually work on them. How about Dr. Doom invents some sort of ray to neutralize the Hulk, but it fails? And it really makes other problems they have seem illogical. Reed can't cure Ben Grimm? There should logically be no complications for characters in the Marvel or DC universe. Batman or some other super genius should've given Oracle micro-organisms to inject into her legs to let her walk again almost immediately. It's just silly to think that someone can build a time traveling machine, but they can't solve a simple problem that is a main driver of the story. |
| 6/2/12 2:42 PM | |
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MarkRobinson
370
Member Since: 4/5/07 Posts: 10278 |
The reason I used Goku is because he's an example of a purely physical threat. He's this presumably super powerful character with the education of a 1st grader. Superman is a genius. Thor should be super intelligent and wise considering he's tens of thousands of years old. Surfer has cosmic awareness and even savage hulk has been retcon'd to be subciously making genius level attacks in his rampages. I guess I could have used Bizarro. |
| 6/2/12 3:02 PM | |
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Zenoplata
117
Member Since: 6/14/10 Posts: 7409 |
Bizarro is so retarded that anyone could beat him though. You basically just point at the sun and say, "You shouldn't fly into that." I don't know, I feel like everything should be toned down though. From Hulk to Richards to the Sentry. I guess that's the problem with comic books, unless it's a self-contained book the powers are just going to increase exponentially depending on what other writers are doing and what the status quo is. That's why it's so much more enjoyable to read comics that are purely Batman or DareDevil or Spider-Man, because you don't have to worry about them trying to one-up everyone else. Throw those characters into the JLA or Avengers and it's shit. |
| 6/2/12 8:21 PM | |
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None So Blind
92
Member Since: 1/1/01 Posts: 13988 |
Re: Mark's discussion of Reed - I LOVED the explanation in Ultimate FF that when no one was looking, Reed expanded his head in some fashion that made his thinking go faster or some such - so he was a smart fucker, but using his power to amp his smarts made him the smartest thing on two legs...which of course would piss Doom off immensely, he'd think he's *the* smartest since he doesn't need to do that :-) |
| 6/3/12 9:44 PM | |
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MarkRobinson
370
Member Since: 4/5/07 Posts: 10285 |
@ Zeno Reed, Doom and just about all the other smart guys i can think of in the Marvel universe do fail. And often. Shit, its pretty much Reeds fault for the Civil War, due to his "psycho history" or whatever new science he discovered. Obviously that can only be used so many time before it just becomes a method used for jobbing the character. Kind of like always outsmarting the Juggernaut. Or Dooms arrogance harbinging some simple oversight in his plan back firing on him. Like you say, some of that shits just silly. Of course that extends to all types of senarios and characters. I mean, how hard is it for Batman to just lock up the joker? Its like theyre all masochist performing some ritualistic dance of intentional suffering. lock him up to let him escape later. Thats comics though. And id be care what you wish for with the toning down talk. Seems to me thats exactly what DC tried to achieve with the new 52 reboot. and we know how well thats turning out. If marvel did that, i would be pissed. @@! |
| 6/3/12 9:52 PM | |
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MarkRobinson
370
Member Since: 4/5/07 Posts: 10286 |
None So Blind - Re: Mark's discussion of Reed - I LOVED the explanation in Ultimate FF that when no one was looking, Reed expanded his head in some fashion that made his thinking go faster or some such - so he was a smart fucker, but using his power to amp his smarts made him the smartest thing on two legs...which of course would piss Doom off immensely, he'd think he's *the* smartest since he doesn't need to do that :-) Yeah totally/ even though the Ultimate universe has a lot of bullshit i dont care for, such as killing off everybody for shock value. I really like the idea of one of the smart dudes using smarts to cause world wide problems for everyone. This is kinda like a World War Reed story but his approach isnt focused on revenge and serving comeuppance. Its his logical approach to shaping the world in his image because hes the smartest motherfucker around (and hes butthurt). Hes kinda like Dr Doom. Im not sure how theyre going to resolve that story without something that makes me say WTF. Watch it be the Children turn on him or he wasnt full over his love for Sue and it causes him to make a mistake. |
| 6/4/12 12:18 AM | |
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Zenoplata
117
Member Since: 6/14/10 Posts: 7433 |
It's too late for the toning down stuff. But that doesn't mean certain writers can't effectively use the characters either in one-shots, non-canon stories, or just in limited action. The best Batman stories are not actually part of Batman's accepted storyline, even before the reboot. It's part of why Ultimates has at times been so good. The characters aren't really treated like Mary Sue's. Popular characters are capable of being killed or failing. There is actually gravity behind the situations. There is a level of mortality that makes them more relatable I guess. |
| 6/4/12 7:10 AM | |
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MarkRobinson
370
Member Since: 4/5/07 Posts: 10293 |
I agree about Ultimates. Even though its suffered a bit from shock factor deaths and the like, its good that deaths can happen. We all know that Human Torch in the 616 isnt really going to stay dead. |
| 6/4/12 12:16 PM | |
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Zenoplata
117
Member Since: 6/14/10 Posts: 7439 |
True. I think it's part of the reason I like Age of Apocalypse so much better than the normal X-men as well. |
| 6/4/12 2:41 PM | |
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None So Blind
92
Member Since: 1/1/01 Posts: 13989 |
MarkRobinson -None So Blind - Re: Mark's discussion of Reed - I LOVED the explanation in Ultimate FF that when no one was looking, Reed expanded his head in some fashion that made his thinking go faster or some such - so he was a smart fucker, but using his power to amp his smarts made him the smartest thing on two legs...which of course would piss Doom off immensely, he'd think he's *the* smartest since he doesn't need to do that :-) Actually, I was talking about "nice guy Reed" in the Ultimate FF book, not "genocidal loony Reed" currently in the Ultimates ;-) |
| 9/24/12 8:21 AM | |
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MarkRobinson
370
Member Since: 4/5/07 Posts: 11413 |
Weve already discussed how Reed is more centered on being an explorer type, while Tony is a futurist/military tech type of guy. Now, am i right in considering these just were their focus lies and not necessarily the extent of their intelligence? Reed is considered one of the top brains in the marvel universe. Describing his intelligence and the way it works, you find that his form of intelligence is much more like an autistic savant than it is like Einsteins. He should shit on basically all current science and knowledge know to us, the actual comic readers. Does his intelligence work like Amadeus Cho's? who is calculating battle variables in active combat environments. Amadeus' intelligence seems to work more like Midnighters combat computers than what we consider genius level intelligence. I havent seen anything to suggest that Stark or Reeds intelligence works like that. However, as smart as they are, shouldnt they also be doing that? It has been stated (but potentially forgotten) that the raging Hulk is also doing the same thing: Calculating complex environmental damage to prevent people from dying while he was smashing. Shouldnt Tony Starks be doing that shit as well? |
| 9/24/12 8:24 AM | |
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MarkRobinson
370
Edited: 09/24/12 8:25 AM Member Since: 4/5/07 Posts: 11414 |
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| 9/24/12 9:10 AM | |
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paw
505
Member Since: 1/1/01 Posts: 30899 |
Amadeus Cho....whatever happened to that guy? |
| 9/24/12 10:05 AM | |
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MarkRobinson
370
Member Since: 4/5/07 Posts: 11416 |
I think hes still working with Banners team at the intelligencia. That is, IF there still is an Intelligencia. Id like to see more of him in the future. I think he would be cool running a team. |
| 9/24/12 11:54 AM | |
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Zenoplata
117
Member Since: 6/14/10 Posts: 8630 |
Here's my problem with intelligence in comic books - no one has a specialty. Everyone is just so smart they're the masters of everything. Dr. Doom can create a time machine, create force-fields for his armor, has a button that manipulates magnetic fields in his armor, is intelligent enough to cast magic and be second only to Dr. Strange, etc. etc. Same with Batman, same with Reed, same with Iron Man. It'd be one thing if Batman were just a master of guerrilla warfare and investigation, but he's also a doctor, engineer, master mathematician and anything else you can think of. It's just a bit too much. Stark should basically be a master of plasma energy and weapons or something along those lines. His suit and powers should articulate that - he shouldn't be able to crack into high security servers at will. There is a huge difference developing a plasma blaster or artificial energy source and hacking into a secured database. |
| 9/24/12 6:30 PM | |
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Calebcb
56
Member Since: 1/9/06 Posts: 1050 |
Stark built his suit to do Cho-like calculations automatically so he can kick back. Reed occasionally does neat things with his stretching powers. Cho's ability seems to come from more than just pure intelligence and is a special ability other geniuses don't necessarily have. "Amadeus is a teenager gifted with a super-genius mind, bearing the 'natural ability to identify the variables and quantum possibilities in any situation.'" It still seems like bullshit, because nothing in his background suggests the physical skill to throw fast and accurate enough to hit that missile in the scan even if he sees that it's theoretically possible. Most characters do have specialties, but it's up the writers to highlight them and limit what they can do based on them. Sadly if an ultimate weapon or device is required, the resident genius of the team will usually invent it out of thin air. Only Forge should be doing that consistently. I do give intelligence feats some leeway though, because nobody will blink an eye at impossible markmanship feats or martial artists that have mastered everything and can fight off 100 foes at the same time, but will hold intelligence to real world standards. I'd just have an easier time swallowing it if they gave some reason why someone is smarter than a normal person could ever be. Until recently, Bruce Banner and Beast were two specialists that were dealt with reasonably. They were always sought out for advice on problems relating to gamma radiation and mutation and rarely for things outside of their specialty. Now crazy Banner is running around with force fields stronger than Ironman and Doom. |
| 9/25/12 12:19 AM | |
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JoeHurley
21
Edited: 09/25/12 12:26 AM Member Since: 11/8/08 Posts: 2175 |
Tony Stark is a genius at building weapons and tech, but that doesn't mean he can figure out how to counter Kitty Pryde's powers without studying her in person, analyzing her powers, running tests, etc. Just knowing she phases and being able to come up with a counter is a cheap cop out. Once you go down that road then you have to wonder why he doesn't have a machine to counter the hundred other enemies that rank higher on his threat list than Kitty Pryde. Where's the anti Ultron weapon? The Dr Doom Armor shut down weapon? The Kang time travel nullification field? Once you use that gimmick then you have to wonder why he isn't using it repeatedly. Once a hero uses a power then he has to use it again and again when the situation fits. You can't have Thor use a lightning bolt on a villain once and then never see him do it again. Especially when put in situations where he is in even more danger or need than when the original situation. Or am I supposed to believe Stark preps for his first fight with Kitty pryde but doesn't bother preppingfor an encounter with Ultron who he has fought 50 times before and knows he will run into again some day? My pet peeve with the hyper intelligence/prep time/power countering is that you can't prep for someone you don't have personal experience and direct interaction with. Just watching video of a fighter does not give you all the knowledge needed to defeat them. Training directly with a guy or fighting him gives you more insight and experuience that provides more of an edge than watching tape of him fighting others. The problem with these characters is you have geniuses being written by writers that are not geniuses so it fluctuates. One minute Reed Richards, Amadeus Cho or Batman are making brilliant leaps in logic and the next they are doing things that are very average and normal. Like in the bible where God is a perfect being and at times showing very human traits that are not perfect like jealousy, not nowing what people will do and wiping out the world with a flood because wickedness has grown out of control when you control everything, created the situation and have foresight to see the future yet say "fuck it, i'll just wipe everything out and start over because it's grown out of my control...even though i'm God". |
| 9/25/12 2:48 AM | |
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MarkRobinson
370
Edited: 09/25/12 2:48 AM Member Since: 4/5/07 Posts: 11430 |
I agree that there should be specialties. However, growing up i was under the impression that Reed was the premier genius of the marvel universe. The dude knew about EVERYTHING and could do just as much as any other genius on the planet with it. I still have that position. Like Calebcb said, Banner was an expert in one field, beast as well. I never thought to include banner to the Top 10 minds list any more than i would peter parker. I think guys like Cap and Ironman who have been policing the world to an extent should definitely have the strategic upper hand in most battles. atleast as far as prep weaponry and h2h combat strategy goes. I think Cap studying ironfists tape should give him an advantage in the fight. should he be depicted to have studied ironfists technique and fighting style? I think so. It seems to be in his characters motivation to do so. He has the intellectual capacity to excel in prep and strategy. I feel like Its the difference between having a great fighter step up and take a fight on an hours notice and the other fighter already studying tape of that fighter for years. to the point that they know what the opponents bad fight habits are and were the weaknesses lay. As for Tony, he has created so many devices over the years that its to the point that you would wonder why he didnt have something. I feel like the limitations should be put on suits. If someone catches him off guard then sure, he might not have the right armor but give him a couple hours and hes got something prepared. Just dont all of a sudden give him new tech thats ridiculously complex like an anti-phoenix force gundam. thats fuckin dumb. Historically think its accurate that he can create weapons for various threats but that hasnt meant hes always prepared. Shouldnt Tony have just used sonics on Kitty? She can still hear even though shes intangible. |
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