LEO >> weapon retention

Hey not all of us supervisors are asshats!!!!!  Gannon is a Sgt and I'm a Sup too (wear major rank as a GS-13)

But I agree many of my fellow supervisors could not fight their way out of a dixie cup.

Oh and they shoot like shit too!

 Question on the position of kimura for weapon retention. If you go for a kimura standing it is essentially a 2 on 1 scenario either way if its on right or not. Most LEO rigs I see where I live an exentendable baton or  other Less than lethal alternative is on other hip.

1. If I am 2 on 1 how do I prevent him from obtaining the items other hip?
2. If I go 1 on 1 with just a pin trap with backwards or rotating direction to dispel his force of direction and then draw my Less - lethal item be a better alternative. Or use with the hand pin, outside foot trap, and shoulder stop for a unbalancing sweep be good also.

I only ask because as trying to control a person I am using both of my hands against his one. I know a million scenarios exist but  seems very risky because we don't know whats happening with the off hand.

Joe Maffei - In most cases gun retention is practiced wrong. If some one is grabbing your firearm then they obviously have bad intentions. Usually with that attitude comes extreme forward pressure, this aggressiveness first must be dealt with, when you try to do anything pin and spin or anything prior this you will get blown over. Take in consideration, low light and climate and you might as well try a finger lock. Control the forward presure first. J.M.

 That is along the same lines as I was implying. I do like the idea of a pain compliance to the fingers to dispell energy first. thats fairly easy and can be done with the one hand.

I was just giving the scope of awareness and that more could be going on than just the weapon grab. That off hand and entire enviroment needs monitored. Two on one with the hands lends the defender at a huge disadvantage I believe.

Joe Maffei

 AHH, I didn't catch the implied joke, I read to the post to fast. Still could work. I had a sheriff friend who was very good at those small joint manipulations. As long as its very accessable. I agree its a whirl wind of action in any struggle. Create and control the distance even if you lose it in the initial rush you need to get it back so its easier to asses the threat and options to dispell the threat.

GladiatorGannon - "I know the brass kind of forgets what goes on in the real world, but do they loose their imagination and common sense when they promote?"yes.and the faster you get promoted, the less street experience you have, and the higher you get, the longer have been away from the street.

Shire - Ok, I did not read ALL the posts, but from my stand point, we need to teach cops to severely hurt anyone trying to take our guns. Cool subs are nice to teach, but in a real fight with deadly results, most (by this I mean average) police can not control a person long enough to get the kimora completed.

I know, I know, many want to spout this technique or that, but the average, non training cop will not have skill to defeat an attacker. And remember, this is life or death, not finishing with a sub! If someone goes for our gun, they get kicked in the nuts, elbowed in the jaw or temple, or whatever!! PERIOD. Cool techniques get us paid or recognized as trainers, but for the lowest common denominator (40 yr old slightly overweight cop) this stuff wont work for them.

I have been a martial artist for 41 yrs, certified police trainer for 21 yrs. Lets keep it real, sometimes wild ass throwin down beats fine motor movements. Be safe to all!

FJJ828 -  I would tend to agree that the Kimura as it is taught in BJJ and Submission Grappling is often lost on the average front line officer.

Jerry Bohlander - Kid, we know not all are asshats. But alot (most) are.

chinaski -  I actually have used the Kimura to defend against a weapon grab. I was walking a formally cooperative prisoner into cells when he suddenly started to resist. I kicked his legs out from under him and put pressure on his back while he was in the kneeling position. He surpised me by standing straight up with me on top of him, he was about 5'11 180 and I was 6'3 270 at the time, so needless to say this was unexpected.

As he got to his feet he turned into me and got me in a body lock and started driving into me. There were other members in the cell area but they were too far away to get into the fray as this unfolded extremely quickly. Then I felt his hands grabbing at my holster on the far side. I immediately transitioned into the kimura and applied maximum force, forcing him to the ground. Unfortunately for him his descent was interupted by the steel rim of the eyewash station, which collided with his forehead. I moved him to the ground where I noted the blood literally spurting from his forehead. I handcuffed him, got him into cells and called an ambulance. No permanent damage to his shouler but his forehead still bears a sizable "divot-type" scar. He probably will not attempt to grab another police officer's gun..