OtherGround Forum >> Has anyone here studied the occult seriously?

paradigmer - jimmy23 - "was it Heinlen who said that any sufficently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic ?"

Yes, he said, "One man's "magic" is another man's engineering. "Supernatural" is a null word."


It would be like someone time traveling a few hundred years back with an Ipad in hand. "Magick" they would say! (Whereby Steve Jobs's attorneys who were placed there posthumously through the same mechanisms of time travel would thusly begin ligitation for unauthorized product placement.)

It was Arthur C Clarke who said that any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

paradigmer...your fine......as always one of my favorite members.

paradigmer - Tiresias - "Can you elaborate on what this means in practice P-Diggy?"

In practice it completely changes everything because typically, your beliefs and behaviors are going to be congruent. For example, if you believe that your doing a ritual to bring harm to someone will result in that harm coming back your way 10 times; then

1. You probably won't do it.

2. Even if this "law of return" weren't absolutely true and only relatively true (your belief in the same being the relative part), there's a good chance you would realize some sort of harm out of your expectant self-fulfilling prophecy. Or, as the Thomas Theorem more eloquently states:

"If men define situations as real, they are real in their consequences." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_theorem)

and

3. Your belief in and adherence to this "law" then contributes to that egregore, giving it, to some degree, some power. Obviously, that power only applies to those (you) who believe in it. It's a cycle of belief and behavior. Whether or not the law actually exists doesn't matter, because it exists in your mind and therefore influences your behavior to NOT engage in certain practices.

Tiresias - "Is there no "good and bad"? Is every practice morally equal?"

Far be it from me to begin a philosophical discussion with you! Ha, I've witnessed the ruined shells of men who have gone before me in such battle...I will remain a spectator thank you very much! lol

I will only say that I personally subscribe to a meta-ethical moral relativist stance and it works for me :)

By the way, I think most people's definition of good and bad as defined through their actual behavior as opposed to their declarations are:

Good: Beneficial for me.

Bad: Not beneficial for me.

I come in peace brother!

We have, afterall, spent time in the trenches together...

This Thomas theorem is interesting, but I am not quite sure I understand it completely... I can certain see its rudiments playing out often enough.

As for right and wrong-- I certainly have nothing against meta-ethical moral relativism whatsoever... interestingly enough I believe it merges with seemingly more rigid doctrines-- in practice-- if pursued far enough.  But that is neither here nor there.

I do think your assessment of most people's actually manifested moral attitudes is far too pessimistic-- I hope you are just Thomas Theoreming yourself on that one ;)

jimmy23 - 

"by names and symbols are all powers awakened, or reawakened"

 

 

Let me add this, and it might lead to a backlash. A huge danger point is the crossing through Yesod, the foundation, the unconscious.. When devisng ones own system, one might very well be met with the detritus of a thousand generations of mankind, the qlippoth resulting from their lives and thoughts, and be hard pressed to discern between that which leads one forward and that which is merely beautiful and allurng. This is where many fail (and I have seen it firsthand even with the best guidance) and, to quote the Chaldean Oracles

"Stoop not down into that darkly splendid world... for therein is established the throne of  an evil and fatal force"

agreed

except that i would debate that the darkside exists in us all and must be addressed and even used to our advantage.

without a doubt, dog, it is a requirement to walk forward into the higher mysteries.

But, and ths is just me, it is a path of danger, especially for those who decide that they can just make up a system and stroll through tothe other side. Can it be done? Well, yes,  and folks do it. But the casualty rate is high, even among those who are part of legitimate orders with inner school contacts. Often, ones first encounter here is the end of advancement in that incarnation. And that is fine. I guess my point is, if you insist (as I ahve seen some do) on leaping forward into dangerous territory, recognze that many others have been there and have some hints on comng out the other side with some sanity. I think my biggest objection to some of the Chaos theorists is that they throw out the baby with the bathwater, and seem to think that there are no traps or dangers along the path. 

And you and I know that is not the case...............

"When evoking a demon, one who fails to follow the ritual will bring harm upon themselves."

i always practice what i preach..lol...funny video 

jimmy23 - 

without a doubt, dog, it is a requirement to walk forward into the higher mysteries.

 

But, and ths is just me, it is a path of danger, especially for those who decide that they can just make up a system and stroll through tothe other side. Can it be done? Well, yes,  and folks do it. But the casualty rate is high, even among those who are part of legitimate orders with inner school contacts. Often, ones first encounter here is the end of advancement in that incarnation. And that is fine. I guess my point is, if you insist (as I ahve seen some do) on leaping forward into dangerous territory, recognze that many others have been there and have some hints on comng out the other side with some sanity. I think my biggest objection to some of the Chaos theorists is that they throw out the baby with the bathwater, and seem to think that there are no traps or dangers along the path. 

 

And you and I know that is not the case...............

yes...that path is a very dangerous one. but one that has been successfully traversed.

thedogofdogs - 

Tom O'BentOverByFitch - 

thedogofdogs - 

Tom O'BentOverByFitch -  Paradigmer hit the nail on the head, make up your own system, use no system. A jinx is the most powerful form of magick I have ever witnessed, and it only requires a split second of thought.

We do not send children to school and tell them to make up their own system of educating and grading themselves.....nor would any Occultist tell others to do the same.

 

We freelance on systems learned..........systems that have survived the test of time.

 

Every person needs a strong base for success...........people just do not learn how to concentrate their mind, without some initial instruction.

 

And jinxs backfire upon the sender all the time.

 

Yet, more people without formal education have a more drastic impact on society throughout history.

 

We freelance on systems learned, but, those systems were developed by someone creating their own initially without any base.

 

Having practiced and dealt with these things for many years I would say that no system is more effective than the one you create that you believe in.

 

Of course Jinx's backfire, so does magick!

 

 

Yes that is true....

 

But would disagree to the extent that on;y one who has been trained to some degree and has a solid base can effect their own system to success.

I disagree, and, realize this is a matter of opinion.

I will give an example though-

Many times, people who watch professional sports perform magick without realizing what they are doing.  They will perform pre-game rituals that they feel gives their team an edge.  Now, obviously since there are possibly hundreds of thousands of people performing rituals for victory for both teams the effectiveness could not be accurately attributed to success or failure.  However, this is a very powerful form of magick and if you were to change someones ritual even slightly the effect it would have on their mind (especially their confidence, which is a key component of successful magick) would be devastating and their ritual would be pointless.

These rituals are performed without any knowledge of magick and in fact without even the knowledge that they are performing magick.  No systems were set up, no boundaries or rules were preset.  Typically the rituals are completely unique.

Again, speaking from experience, the most powerful magick is the kind you believe in.  If you think spitting on your shoe before you kick a field goal gives you near-infallible accuracy, it probably will, barring of course those factors that are completely out of human control.

paradigmer - jimmy23 - "was it Heinlen who said that any sufficently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic ?"

Yes, he said, "One man's "magic" is another man's engineering. "Supernatural" is a null word."


It would be like someone time traveling a few hundred years back with an Ipad in hand. "Magick" they would say! (Whereby Steve Jobs's attorneys who were placed there posthumously through the same mechanisms of time travel would thusly begin ligitation for unauthorized product placement.)

jimmy23 - 

"When evoking a demon, one who fails to follow the ritual will bring harm upon themselves."

thedogofdogs - 

paradigmer - 

thedogofdogs - 

Tom O'BentOverByFitch -  I disagree, you do not know you can affect the physical world. You believe it, but, in over a decade I have never seen someone manipulate this reality successfully. That is reality. Does Magick work? As much as you believe it will. But, ask any Magician to knock down a brick wall immediately and see what happens. Yes, your circle is JUST a circle, if it's physical existence isn't required, why draw it in the first place? Masons are "stuck" in archaic systems that require physical items that represent esoteric principles yet refuse to accept the physical limits of those same objects.If your wand breaks is it still useful? Does it lose its power? What if it is stolen? Do you need to replace it?This is why I abandoned these systems and groups.

You remind me of how i was once..you are caught up in the physical points of craft, when the mental point is the path.

TDOD, It seems to me the opposite, that you are caught up on the physical points and Tom'Obentover is not. Tom's philosophy provides much greater flexibility in that it is not bound upon physical artifact, it is a limitless as the imagination of one's mind.

As I mentioned in my previous post; I wasn't discounting any existing systems; the point was that all of the existing systems were just invented by a human at some point in time.

I also sort of agree with Jimmy23 on the point about one should follow and advance through some known, effective system first before branching out on their own. I say "sort of agree", because the danger is that one can become indoctrinated and a later point cannot separate from that reality tunnel.

Fundamentalism, gentlemen, doesn't just exist within the Abrahamic religions and I think we're seeing some examples here within this thread.

 

Well...his earlier comments as well as yours lead to the view that you find the circle as useless, and by his own description a physical thing that a toddler could crawl through.

 

While some rituals do require a physical circle to be created, most occultists cast their circle mentally and thus his point that someone could run up and kick you in your circle an incorrect view of all such practices,where casting the magickal circle are involved.

 

While you may not have been discounting and beliefs according to you, in a backhanded manner you verbally slapped my system and claimed it to be useless against some other countries system.

A very bold statement, that required a response of applicable measure.

The example was in response to a statement you made about "entities" coming anywhere near your circle.  You must accept that the toddler is an entity and can move freely in and out of your "sacred" space without any concern for whether it's sacred or not. 

This defines the problem with magick (in my opinion) and it's societies.  Magicians will say "Well, nothing can hurt me when I'm in my temple" and you say "Well, what about a stray bullet from a drive-by shooting?" and they say "Oh well, yes, that could certainly hurt me but I am talking about OTHER things."

Well, that's just not the case.  If something as simple as a human baby can physically crawl into the circle, then certainly a being with a higher consciousness and greater perception of "reality" could as well.  I've witnessed people possessed in Voudoun by Loa who were not included in the ritual.  Ghuede is NOTORIOUS for causing havoc in sacred rituals and charging in and out of circles of protection and temples as he pleases.  The fact is, our limits ARE bound by our imaginations, which for the most part require us to physically draw a circle around ourselves in order to feel that we are "safe".  It just doesn't really make sense.

It's regretful that my opinion of the Masonic system is negative, but, I do have experience with it and I have seen more than a handful of Masons live a life that is completely incohesive to performing Magick only to come in and take part in rituals.  It is my opinion that the ritual never ends, the magick never stops flowing, and that a magicians lifestyle should reflect that.  I don't feel that most systems are particularly effective for me (or others who don't believe/don't understand), not because of the systems themselves but because they are followed by humans who lack enough imagination to perform a ritual without seeing a silly dagger laying on a "sacred" altar (a table, really, it's a table) in front of them.  To me that's absurd.

Also, I don't think I claimed your system was useless, just archaic, and it is (That's not a bad thing, just an observation).  That's not to say it doesn't work because what I said earlier "If you believe it works, it does." applies to all forms of magick.  I don't think I compared it to another countries system either, I think I used Voudoun as an example of something that works and reigns supreme in Haiti, but, has no affect on a kid from Los Angeles who doesn't believe in it.

okay Tom.

best wishes

Seals...

A seal is a symbol, that has been induced with energy.

The energy comes from the creator through the maker of the seal.

To make a proper seal is a lengthy ritual that requires according to tradition a evocation.

An occultist can make seals for various uses, such as improvement of life, protection, wisdom, health, love, lust, clairvoyance, weather, travel, etc.....

One of the first known makers of seals was Moses, his use of symbols, seals, and sacred words made a lasting impact on Jewish religion and upon subsequent generations of Occultists.

King David, the user of the combination of seals and ritual writing, showed progressive success even through many failures and thus gave credence to a style of Magick, supposedly by legends to have been passed down through the Jewish people from Abraham.

The maker of a seal can summon either white forces or dark forces to themselves by the placement of proper geometry upon the seal, seals are traditionally made upon thin metal disks, though modern times has implicated the use of a 6x6 square white paper or scrolls that are usually longer....see example below.

The seal is then carried upon the maker usually in a draw string satchel and can be re-energized as needed.

This may seem like the famed law of attraction story of modern times and one would be correct, as many correlations do exist.

You are summoning the favor of forces of life in your desired state, and the secret to success is you and your connection with the power within yourself.

"Is it not written, that i said ye are all gods..." Jesus Christ

Excellent input dogs, awesome stuff. Thank you.

"

Out of curiosity, what would compel somebody to 'evoke a demon'?

And, if one were to do so w/out having any knowledge whatsoever, what would be the possible result of doing such a thing?"

curiosity, excitement, that sort of thing. I can t see much good coming from it, even if one doesnt believe in demons you would just be focusng on some very narrow and pathological spects of ones personality and magnifyng them, which does not seem like a good idea to me

"

Many times, people who watch professional sports perform magick without realizing what they are doing. They will perform pre-game rituals that they feel gives their team an edge. Now, obviously since there are possibly hundreds of thousands of people performing rituals for victory for both teams the effectiveness could not be accurately attributed to success or failure. However, this is a very powerful form of magick and if you were to change someones ritual even slightly the effect it would have on their mind (especially their confidence, which is a key component of successful magick) would be devastating and their ritual would be pointless.



These rituals are performed without any knowledge of magick and in fact without even the knowledge that they are performing magick. No systems were set up, no boundaries or rules were preset. Typically the rituals are completely unique.



Again, speaking from experience, the most powerful magick is the kind you believe in. If you think spitting on your shoe before you kick a field goal gives you near-infallible accuracy, it probably will, barring of course those factors that are completely out of human control."

again, that is low magick (not better or worse) rather than high magick. Hence, we are looking at different definitions and perspectives here - dog is talking about one thing, you are talking about another. Like I said, when talking between systems, we have to be pretty clear about our terms or communication breaks down

THE DEAN - 

paradigmer - jimmy23 - "was it Heinlen who said that any sufficently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic ?"

Yes, he said, "One man's "magic" is another man's engineering. "Supernatural" is a null word."


It would be like someone time traveling a few hundred years back with an Ipad in hand. "Magick" they would say! (Whereby Steve Jobs's attorneys who were placed there posthumously through the same mechanisms of time travel would thusly begin ligitation for unauthorized product placement.)

I think you guys are confusing Robert Heinlen with Arthur C. Clark.

yea, Redneck corrected me. I still prefer Heinlen over Clarke though :)

paradigmer voted UP !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

jimmy23 - 

paradigmer voted UP !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I will conclude my systems spiel by saying that having a solid base in Tarot, Qabala, and _______ (whatever system of magick appeals most to you) may not lead to more effective magick, BUT, it will lead to a more rich and fulfilling experience in life.  Especially Qabala, there is just so much wisdom in Qabala that can be applied to damn near any belief system and it is such a beautiful and wonderfully simple (seemingly complex at first) set of ideas. 

Even if you have zero interest in magick or any esoteric principles, I encourage everyone to study Qabala.