Strength & Conditioning >> Mike Mentzer and HIT

Taku - 

Doug,

Bry Bry said "id like to see how a non-roided person could do with Mentzers rep scheme..i think there is a good reason you dont see people using this method..."

Leigh,

Yes, when you have a lot of training experience, and you know that the next one won't go up...That's training to failure in my book.

This one reason why many "Hard Training" advocates enjoy using machines. They can safely go to failure without the need of a spotter. I do a lot of my solo lifiting in a power rack for the same reason. I set the saftey bars at the bottom of the range for a given lift, and then I will do reps until I have no choice but to lower in onto the safety bars.

TAKU

Hey Doug,

You're correct. I was being less literal than you (damn philosophy guy) and made a jump.  Agree MM's older routines were very extreme, and there is little doubt that he was on the juice, and was a case of super genetics as well.

TAKU

The secret to building muscle lies in the relationship between the total demands (stress) placed on a muscle through resistance training and the time between, and frequency of these bouts of stress (recovery time). Basically, muscle building is contingent on the effectiveness of a workout in stimuating growth and the time given to recover from the workout. Muscles require a stimulus which is strong enough to induce an adaptive response (i.e., an increase in muscular size and/or strength) and ample time to recover and reap the full benefits (adaptation) of that stimualtion. If either the stimulus is not strong enough or the recovery time is not long enough or both, then muscle development cannot occur. 

The dilemma faced by most trainees is they don't know how much or little exercise is necessary to stimulate muscle development so they try anything and everything and hope that it works. The better approach--the smarter approach--is to first learn what your requirements are and then design your regimen around them. The best way to do this, is start with the least amout, and then work up from there.

TAKU

Bry Bry,

got it. I mis-understood. My experience has been that this style of training is better for non-juiced folks. Thee super Gene, super Juice guys can do almost anything.

In my career, many of the best built, strongest, and most fit guys, have trained in this manner (H.I.T. style).

TAKU

Badmonkey = STRONG LIKE BULL!!

This stuff works people.

TAKU

JJJJ,

Taku - 

I am an advocate of what I like to call Evidence Based Exercise. I have read pretty much everything MM has written as well as listened to interviews, lectures and, even spoken to him on the phone. His earlier approach was more like Yates. He would do one or two cycles of heavy sets to failure. Later in his career, Mentzer did not advocate training beyond positive (concentric) failure. He did ultimately move in a direction that for many proves to be just too little volume to be truly effective.

My own experience using MM style of training (both with myself and clients) has proven very effective. Several years ago, I put on 10 lbs of solid muscle in one month using MM style brief, infrequent intense training.

The version I used was a classic push - pull - legs split routines.

Push Day:

Chest Fly supersetted with Incline press - Lateral Raise - Rear delt - Dips - Triceps ext

Pull Day:

Pull-over supersetted with Supinated pull-downs - Row - Shrug - Low back ext - Biceps curl

Leg Day 

Leg ext supersetted with Squat - Leg curl - Calf raise ABs (one set each flexion / ext / rotation)

I trained once every two days (two whole days between workouts). After warm-ups (never more than about 2 sets of the first movement of the day) I would dive right in. I took all sets to positive failure and took as little rest as possible between sets.

At work...I'll chime in  more later.

TAKU

Out To Lunch - 

Taku - 

I am an advocate of what I like to call Evidence Based Exercise. I have read pretty much everything MM has written as well as listened to interviews, lectures and, even spoken to him on the phone. His earlier approach was more like Yates. He would do one or two cycles of heavy sets to failure. Later in his career, Mentzer did not advocate training beyond positive (concentric) failure. He did ultimately move in a direction that for many proves to be just too little volume to be truly effective.

My own experience using MM style of training (both with myself and clients) has proven very effective. Several years ago, I put on 10 lbs of solid muscle in one month using MM style brief, infrequent intense training.

The version I used was a classic push - pull - legs split routines.

Push Day:

Chest Fly supersetted with Incline press - Lateral Raise - Rear delt - Dips - Triceps ext

Pull Day:

Pull-over supersetted with Supinated pull-downs - Row - Shrug - Low back ext - Biceps curl

Leg Day 

Leg ext supersetted with Squat - Leg curl - Calf raise ABs (one set each flexion / ext / rotation)

I trained once every two days (two whole days between workouts). After warm-ups (never more than about 2 sets of the first movement of the day) I would dive right in. I took all sets to positive failure and took as little rest as possible between sets.

At work...I'll chime in  more later.

TAKU

Taku,

How did you progress on exercises like lateral raises, where you can't really add a lot of weight? Did you just keep adding reps each session? How high did you have to take the reps to be able to add weight on an exercise like this? Thanks.

Badmonkey - When i do laterals and feel i need a slight bump in weight i first make sure my rep cadence is slowed to a momentum free pace and see if that makes the current weight a bit harder.

At a certain point if i can do 30lbs in strict form and with a controlled speed for a certain number of reps i'm pretty sure i can handle 35lbs with a little more speed for fewer reps and then tidy up my form each time i revisit the exercise.

Another thing i've been playing with is stage reps or zone reps and they are sometimes called.

If i can handle 25lb dumbbell lateral raises for lets say 10 reps in decent form, i start the set with the weakest 1/3 of that movement - the first third of it - and rep out... i might get 10-20 reps before i cant manage another one, each being controlled and deliberate trying my best not to use momentum and start each rep at the point where the shoulder starts to bear the weight about a foot out from my waist and holding for a second right before the middle range of motion is reached...

After i can't manage another rep i drop the weights and shake it out for 10-15 seconds before picking them back up and starting the next stage of reps - the middle 1/3 - where the first 1/3 left off and stopping right before where the final 1/3 range of motion might start... i rep out in the same manner and usually end up with 8-12 reps before hitting failure.

After another 10-15 second rest i pick the weights back up and do the same thing with the final 1/3 range of motion contracting and holding at the end of each rep for a second and get a good squeeze.. i'm lucky to manage 6-8 reps at this point.

The pump and intensity of a set performed like this is unlike anything i've felt before, and you're actually hitting failure 3 times - once for each different part of the range of motion, whereas with a full rep set you might fail at the beginning or in the middle of your rep with some gas eft in the tank so to speak.

I've also found this is a great way to increase weight for different ranges of motion. Maybe pick a weight that will lead to 10-12 reps in each zone and find out you can use 20lbs for the first 1/3, 25lbs for the second 1/3 and 30lbs for the finals 1/3...

There are many ways to play with this method - do 1/2 range of motion instead of 1/3, or really hitting each range hard and resting a couple minutes before attempting the other ranges...

HULC - I read some of Mentzers stuff a couple of years back and really liked it. One thing that did stick in my mind was that MM never said that a single set would be the best result for absolutely everybody, but that it was the most logical place to start. And if a lifter felt they needed more volume to grow then they could up the sets from there. As opposed to starting at 3 or 4 sets per lift and not knowing whether going up, down, or staying where they were would be best for them.

Chocolate Shatner - Even with 30-40 minutes, you can still work in a good normal workout. Jim Wendler's 5/3/1 is designed for 30-45 minutes, and you can pare it down to under 30 if you eliminate the assistance exercises (although I don't recommend this except for short periods).

Seriously, break it down to 3 workouts a week. Do the Boring But Big Program, and your chest workout becomes:

Bench (work up to 5/3 or 1)
Bench 3x10
Pushups 2 sets to failure.

You just drilled your chest, triceps, shoulders, and even got some core work in, using a total of 10 sets or so. If you keep your rest time down in the 1 - 1.5 minute range, you can do the whole fucking thing in 20 minutes.