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Traditional Martial Arts >> Is TKD really from Shotokan?
| 7/14/11 6:45 PM | |
de braco
Member Since: 1/1/01 Posts: 935 |
It's an old irish game also,they only kicked each other in the shins though. |
| 7/23/11 9:25 PM | |
Old Red Belt
Member Since: 3/11/11 Posts: 92 |
Tae Kwon Do did come from Shotokan as many other martial arts have come from others.There were Korean Martial Arts already established in Korea at the time Gen. Choi started the Kukiwon system of Unified Tae Kwon Do. Mas Oyama was a student of Both Shotokan and Gojuryu and developed kyoshushinkia Karate of course. Choi din't like the Japanese and developed his Tae Kwon Do in spite of the Japanese influence. In general they belive the hands are for mor artful pursuits so the legs are they major weapons in this art, most intermediate martial artist of course already know this. |
| 7/23/11 10:46 PM | |
yusul
21 
Member Since: 1/1/01 Posts: 13534 |
to add fuel to the fire, ji han jae, hkd grandmaster claimed to invent the spinning heel kick in hapkido, which was imported by tkd. i have it on the authority of a first gen student, the one who developed hkd kicking in general was someone named kang, who imported it from indigenous traditions. ji has a great point in that original tkd didn't have a lot of circular kicks, until i think the 70's or 80's. old article. |
| 7/23/11 11:05 PM | |
MIKE CIESNOLEVICZ
Member Since: 3/20/02 Posts: 6155 |
http://twitter.com/MikeCies |
| 8/5/11 1:15 PM | |
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TrevorRice
Member Since: 1/1/01 Posts: 2368 |
traditional tae kwon do was actually called korean karate when first taught in the U.S. Its identical to shotokan karate. i.e- http://www.amazon.com/Black-Belt-Korean-Karate-Sung/dp/0130776696 |
| 8/8/11 11:03 AM | |
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yusul
21
Member Since: 1/1/01 Posts: 13584 |
^it was called korean karate because westerners didn't know the difference. many koreans used it as a marketing ploy, so a book titled korean karate in english is pretty flimsy evidence. the itf patterns didn't have a resemblance to shotokan, especially the number of kicks in the pattern and the style of kicking. |
| 8/8/11 4:05 PM | |
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Outkaster
Member Since: 1/1/01 Posts: 1306 |
yusul - ^it was called korean karate because westerners didn't know the difference. many koreans used it as a marketing ploy, so a book titled korean karate in english is pretty flimsy evidence. the itf patterns didn't have a resemblance to shotokan, especially the number of kicks in the pattern and the style of kicking. This |
| 8/8/11 11:41 PM | |
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jcblass
Member Since: 9/8/02 Posts: 3232 |
"It is, Japan ruled Korea for decades. The Japanese all but tried to stamp out anything that was Korean. Koreans trained under Japanese MA instructors, including General Choi and Mas Oyama. Tradional Shotokan became the main influence of what would be Tae Kwon Do." This is true many of the Masters from the 70's all had Judo Black Belts as well. People knock TKD now days, but the TKD post the 1988 olympics looks nothing like the type of TKD that was being taught by the many former ROK army vets who came to America after the war. |
| 8/10/11 8:13 AM | |
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Outkaster
Member Since: 1/1/01 Posts: 1310 |
jcblass - "It is, Japan ruled Korea for decades. The Japanese all but tried to stamp out anything that was Korean. Koreans trained under Japanese MA instructors, including General Choi and Mas Oyama. Tradional Shotokan became the main influence of what would be Tae Kwon Do." Its true I was there, I lived it. |
| 9/4/11 6:09 AM | |
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KyokushinCatch
25
Member Since: 8/2/02 Posts: 4333 |
Skpotamus - There's a lot of debate about who the "father" of TKD is. A large part of asian history is hard to really decipher because so many of the origin stories get wrapped up in nationalistic pride. months late, but a couple of minor points taekwondo translates to way of the hand and foot, tang soo do means China (Tang dynasty) hand way, same as the original karate-do (Funakoshi changed the character for Tang or China - "kara" - to its homonym meaning "empty" as a nod to its Buddhist roots, and because the Japanese (whom Funakoshi was appealing to) generally despised the Chinese at the time as you mentioned peyong form came from pinan kata, which were developed in Okinawa by Itosu. Funakoshi, a student of Itosu, changed the name of these kata to the Japanese word "heian" (peaceful), again to appeal to the mainlanders |
| 9/4/11 6:30 AM | |
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KyokushinCatch
25
Member Since: 8/2/02 Posts: 4334 |
Outkaster - No the leg techniques look different. I can tell a Karate/Japanese kick a mile a way. They are not the same. modern tkd kicks, yes - evolved over the decades and influenced by their sport original tkd kicks were identical to karate geri-waza. even the spinning heel kick, which some believe was 'invented' by Koreans, actually existed in Okinawan karate (e.g., shorin-ryu) and northern Chinese chuanfa both tkd and hapkido (as well as hkd's clone hwarangdo) were founded after WWII, and were each influenced by Japanese budo/bujutsu (hapkido's founder was the 'houseboy' and student of Daito-Ryu Aikibujutsu head Takeda Sokaku) taekkyon probably did play a part in tkd's kicking technique (maybe more so in hkd's), but it has to be remembered that post-war Korea was reeling from decades of colonization and cultural oppression. tkd's (for the most part) fictitious 2,000 year-old creation story was more about cultivating cultural and national pride after being brutalized by Japanese, then Russian, Chinese, and yes, even American military expeditions, than any historical fact |
| 9/4/11 6:40 AM | |
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KyokushinCatch
25
Member Since: 8/2/02 Posts: 4335 |
de braco - It's an old irish game also,they only kicked each other in the shins though. old English game, actually. called cotswold, cornwall, devon, and/or norfolk wrestling after the northern areas they were most popular in |
| 9/4/11 11:14 AM | |
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yusul
21
Member Since: 1/1/01 Posts: 13750 |
''original tkd kicks were identical to karate geri-waza. even the spinning heel kick, which some believe was 'invented' by Koreans, actually existed in Okinawan karate (e.g., shorin-ryu) and northern Chinese chuanfa both tkd and hapkido (as well as hkd's clone hwarangdo) were founded after WWII, and were each influenced by Japanese budo/bujutsu (hapkido's founder was the 'houseboy' and student of Daito-Ryu Aikibujutsu head Takeda Sokaku) '' you are contradicting yourself. first you say tkd is identical to okinawan karate, then you are saying that it is derived from japanese budo, which is completely different. you are aware of this because you stated that funakoshi changed okinawan karate for the japanese. you are correct about takeda; however, choi himself and many of his students never denied that takeda was choi's primary teacher. however, the history of hkd is more in depth, if you look at primary sources. also, unless what we got in north america was different, i personally never saw a karate person do a spin kick in an open or shotokan tournament in the 80s, and the actual spin kick mechanics are completely different from chinese chuan fa. what can i say, after practicing itf tkd, is that i found that the side kick and other kicks were performed differently than shotokan. they looked noticeably different to myself and the people i trained with. or at least the tkd side kick was as different from shotokan as it was different from shaolin. also, observing shotokan tournaments i've seen, the % of punching and low to mid level kicks was much higher than in tkd. however, in tkd, everyone had the option of using more punches, but the kicks did dominate tkd tournaments. something to consider; if punches were dominant 60/40 in shoto tournament or even 50/50, it could be assumed that practioners thought they had about equal power OR the power of the kick didn't outweight the speed and accuracy of the punch. using that same reasoning, it's evident that tkd practioners did actually think that the kick was a far better weapon or else it wouldn't be the primary weapon used in a point and not KO setting. |
| 9/4/11 11:18 AM | |
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yusul
21
Member Since: 1/1/01 Posts: 13751 |
also, the spinning heel kick is performed differently in tkd and chuan fa. i'm not going to get too into it, but look at the foot during the spin, and the hip itself. the contention is not that the koreans invented the spinning heel, but the spinning heel in tkd comes from korean sources. tae kyon can prove this, but also hkd can as well. |
| 9/4/11 3:25 PM | |
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de braco
Member Since: 1/1/01 Posts: 948 |
KyokushinCatch -WTF does the shin kicking game have to do with old jacket wrestling? Theyr'e completely different.de braco - It's an old irish game also,they only kicked each other in the shins though. |
| 9/4/11 5:07 PM | |
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KyokushinCatch
25
Member Since: 8/2/02 Posts: 4337 |
yusul: regarding the "contradiction," many Okinawan styles (shotokan, shito-ryu, etc.) became accepted as Japanese budo, and since the Korean founders of taekwondo studied karate in Japan, I believe it is fair to say that the Okinawan art they learned could also be considered a Japanese budo. the bujutsu part was, of course, in reference to hapkido's ties with daito-ryu true, while Choi and most of his hapkido students never denied Takeda as part of their genealogy, other hapkido students (Joo Bang Lee, founder of hwarangdo for example) claimed that their art is purely Korean and over 2,000 years old re: spin kicks, I'm a kyokushin stylist and used back-spin kicks (straight-legged "wheel", snapping hook, and back-thrust) since the '70s. although kyokushin founder Oyama was actually a Korean, he himself said that the kicks of kyokushin come from shotokan and goju-ryu sources; the kwonbup that he learned in his native Korea consisted mainly of striking with the head. there are only so many ways the human body can back-spin and kick. the major difference I see is the striking point - modern tkd strike with an extended sole and in a snapping/hooking motion, while original tkd and Okinawan styles strike with the back of the heel in a wide arcing motion (many Japanese full-contact competitors today use the Korean version of that kick, along with the Thai-style round kick). photographic evidence of this exists in early (pre-'70s) books on tkd and karate tkd's sidekick is identical to karate's side thrust kick. the side snap kick (seen primarily in Okinawan kata) is a very different kick, especially in its chambering in kyokushin, Oyama wrote that fighting technique should consist of 70% kicks, 30% hand techniques |
| 9/4/11 5:12 PM | |
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KyokushinCatch
25
Member Since: 8/2/02 Posts: 4338 |
de braco -KyokushinCatch -WTF does the shin kicking game have to do with old jacket wrestling? Theyr'e completely different.de braco - It's an old irish game also,they only kicked each other in the shins though. just one of my sources, fren: http://www.english-cottage-lifestyle.com/cotswold-olimpicks.html |
| 9/4/11 5:22 PM | |
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de braco
Member Since: 1/1/01 Posts: 949 |
It was never called cornish or Devonshire wrestling, shin kicking is completely seperate. Called Purring in Ireland |
| 9/4/11 5:31 PM | |
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KyokushinCatch
25
Edited: 09/04/11 5:34 PM Member Since: 8/2/02 Posts: 4340 |
so, the English are wrong? you are correct about Celtic purring though another source: http://misterdavid.typepad.com/traditional_sports/2010/01/shin-kicking.html |
| 9/4/11 5:37 PM | |
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de braco
Member Since: 1/1/01 Posts: 950 |
Where does it state it was ever part of cornish or devonshire wrestling? It's and old drinking game |
| 9/4/11 5:38 PM | |
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de braco
Member Since: 1/1/01 Posts: 951 |
^ an |
| 9/4/11 8:55 PM | |
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yusul
21
Member Since: 1/1/01 Posts: 13753 |
''yusul: regarding the "contradiction," many Okinawan styles (shotokan, shito-ryu, etc.) became accepted as Japanese budo, and since the Korean founders of taekwondo studied karate in Japan, I believe it is fair to say that the Okinawan art they learned could also be considered a Japanese budo. the bujutsu part was, of course, in reference to hapkido's ties with daito-ryu'' although not my area, from what i've seen, okinawan form underwent some significant changes when going from okinawa, which used to be a sovereign state, to japan. for example, it's written that japanese shotokan stances became longer. also, i wouldn't consider it the same, as budo is a japanese concept that was an offshoot of the bujutsu on japan, developed through the warring class. okinawa had it's own ethos for the martial arts from what i understand. ''true, while Choi and most of his hapkido students never denied Takeda as part of their genealogy, other hapkido students (Joo Bang Lee, founder of hwarangdo for example) claimed that their art is purely Korean and over 2,000 years old'' his claim might have some merit. he acknowledges that he trained under choi, but said that a monk who taught him yin yang fist taught him the same techniques. this of course is unprovable and not convincing, at least to me. on the other hand, if one looks at hrd though, they seem to have kicking techniques (lacking in daito ryu), weapons techniques, palm techniques and other strikes missing from daito ryu. at best, he could claim that some of the techniques integrated into hrd were from an earlier tradition. 're: spin kicks, I'm a kyokushin stylist and used back-spin kicks (straight-legged "wheel", snapping hook, and back-thrust) since the '70s. although kyokushin founder Oyama was actually a Korean, he himself said that the kicks of kyokushin come from shotokan and goju-ryu sources; the kwonbup that he learned in his native Korea consisted mainly of striking with the head. there are only so many ways the human body can back-spin and kick. the major difference I see is the striking point - modern tkd strike with an extended sole and in a snapping/hooking motion, while original tkd and Okinawan styles strike with the back of the heel in a wide arcing motion (many Japanese full-contact competitors today use the Korean version of that kick, along with the Thai-style round kick). photographic evidence of this exists in early (pre-'70s) books on tkd and karate'' a few things; i can't argue about kyokushin having spin kicks as we didn't have any of those stylists in our area. i should have said specifically shotokan instead of all karate because tkd is being compared to it. although, it should be kept in mind that oy€ama had dealings with general choi, in an interview, general choi said he was trying to bring kyokushin under the tkd fold and while oyama decided against it, he did consider the possibility. aside from that, who knows how much technique was exchanged? from the footage of goju ryu, and other styles besides kyokushin and it's offshoots, i've never seen a spin kick used in a tournament. also, i don't know what else to tell you, watching my club going against karate and kung fu styles in the 80s, only one kung fu club and the tkd clubs used the spin kicks in comps. i never went against them, but my training partners did at open tournies and really, despite whatever was advocated, it was close to 50/50 or 60/40 punching from my experience in the 80s. maybe there has been evolution since then. i'm only talking from what i've seen. btw, i have a high regard for kyokushinkai. ''tkd's sidekick is identical to karate's side thrust kick. the side snap kick (seen primarily in Okinawan kata) is a very different kick, especially in its chambering' again i felt there is a difference, but considering i've left it behind to train in other martial arts, i can't demonstrate it. what i can do is post the opinion of one of the first tkd practioners in canada at the time later. |
| 9/5/11 7:10 PM | |
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KyokushinCatch
25
Member Since: 8/2/02 Posts: 4341 |
cool, agree to disagree you've probably seen this, but in case you haven't: http://youtu.be/nfUxh3gt1w4 |
| 9/5/11 7:17 PM | |
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KyokushinCatch
25
Member Since: 8/2/02 Posts: 4342 |
oh yeah, forgot to ask if Gen. Choi is one of the TKDist with Oyama. can you identify the others? |
| 9/5/11 7:58 PM | |
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de braco
Member Since: 1/1/01 Posts: 954 |
LOL at Choi trying to bring kyokushin into the ITF fold. They are diametrically opposed in regards to sparring.How would have that worked? |
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