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SBGI >> Is Silat Alive?
| 11/13/06 12:11 PM | |
smileythai
Edited: 13-Nov-06 Member Since: 01/01/2001 Posts: 2491 |
After watching some of Matt's interviews on google video, I've got a few questions in relation to pentjak silat(specifically maphilindo/mande muda). I know silat has forms/patterns, but it also has lots of interesting throws/submissions which aren't typically seen in other grappling styles. Can silat be made functional by reorienting the training to include non-compliant opponents and sparring? Has anyone incorporated silat into their game? Thanks! |
| 11/13/06 4:29 PM | |
Matt Thornton
2 
Edited: 13-Nov-06 04:34 PM Member Since: 01/01/2001 Posts: 3097 |
When you see "interesting throws/submissions which aren't typically seen" in functional grappling arts like Judo, wrestling, greco, sambo, etc, then there is usually a reason why. And no, despite mythology it is almost never because they are "too dangerous". Nine times out of ten it is simply because they are silly. Silat on a whole tends to be one of the absurd Martial Arts groups that found its way past the censors of the critical mind. I sometimes wonder how many people consider the fact that many of these more comic book like Martial Arts have simply been made up, and rest in almost no practical application? Martial Artisits on a whole tend to be a very gullible lot. But we only get caught when we want to be seduced. www.straightblastgym.com |
| 11/13/06 5:43 PM | |
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smileythai
Edited: 13-Nov-06 Member Since: 01/01/2001 Posts: 2497 |
I guess that's a big fat NO! lol Thanks for the response. |
| 11/14/06 1:25 PM | |
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FJJ828
Edited: 14-Nov-06 Member Since: 01/01/2001 Posts: 2115 NAPLES BRAZILIAN JIU JITSU L.L.C. |
That one's gonna hurt.... |
| 11/14/06 5:37 PM | |
|
smileythai
Edited: 14-Nov-06 Member Since: 01/01/2001 Posts: 2509 |
hurt? I swear, whatever it is, I didn't do it. Honest! |
| 11/15/06 8:11 AM | |
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JRockwell
61
Edited: 15-Nov-06 Member Since: 03/13/2002 Posts: 2214 |
Many years ago I had a young silat practitioner (from Indonsesia) tell me that part of his family's system included going to pray in the graveyard at night - this made him unable to be killed by a bullet. I was waiting for the punchline, but he was dead (no pun intended) serious. I was so amazed that I forgot to ask him if the bullets would vaporize, bounce off him, stop in mid air, return-to-sender, etc. Cuz that would be really cool to see. Anyway, I have heard the Dog Brothers and Burton R. have developed some "Functional Silat" methods, but haven't seen their tapes on it. I'm sure it is a stripped-down system, drilled alive, and looks nothing like the Silat I was exposed to back in the day. |
| 11/15/06 1:26 PM | |
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Jeff Duarte
Edited: 15-Nov-06 Member Since: 01/01/2001 Posts: 4363 |
I agree that Silat is silly and doesn't compare to functional styles like BJJ, Boxing, Wrestling, Ninjutsu.
Ok, ok, maybe not Wrestling. |
| 11/15/06 4:48 PM | |
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smileythai
Edited: 15-Nov-06 04:51 PM Member Since: 01/01/2001 Posts: 2518 |
"Many years ago I had a young silat practitioner (from Indonsesia) tell me that part of his family's system included going to pray in the graveyard at night - this made him unable to be killed by a bullet. I was waiting for the punchline, but he was dead (no pun intended) serious." Reminds me of a patient I had recently. A total body burn(self-inflicted) due to voodoo(santeria?) beliefs. From what I understand, they're some kind of priest and in order to prove themself and gain recognition, they have to take themselves to the edge and survive. Crazy! "Anyway, I have heard the Dog Brothers and Burton R. have developed some "Functional Silat" methods, but haven't seen their tapes on it. I'm sure it is a stripped-down system, drilled alive, and looks nothing like the Silat I was exposed to back in the day." Exactly what I wanted to know. I've seen some clips of sport silat and it looks more like amateur mma than the stuff in jurus/demonstrations. I was thinking some of the throws could be applied to a functional grappling system if they were drilled in an alive manner against resistance. Same goes for shuai chiao/san shou. I've some pretty spectacular throws in competition, yet nobody seems to incorporate in into their game. |
| 11/15/06 4:54 PM | |
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Mike Sweeney
Edited: 15-Nov-06 Member Since: 01/01/2001 Posts: 2144 |
"I've seen some clips of sport silat and it looks more like amateur mma than the stuff in jurus/demonstrations." The question to ask then is it really Silat, or is it just wrestling/MMA? |
| 11/15/06 5:04 PM | |
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smileythai
Edited: 15-Nov-06 Member Since: 01/01/2001 Posts: 2519 |
It's funny, when you see the clips, the combatants dance/prance around one another in juru-like movements from long range. But when they actually engage, it's all sloppy boxing/kicking and basic wrestling. There are occasional exotic throws/takedowns, but they are few and far between due to lack of wrestling ability. |
| 11/16/06 8:28 AM | |
|
JRockwell
61
Edited: 16-Nov-06 10:28 AM Member Since: 03/13/2002 Posts: 2219 |
"It's funny, when you see the clips, the combatants dance/prance around one another in juru-like movements from long range. But when they actually engage, it's all sloppy boxing/kicking and basic wrestling. There are occasional exotic throws/takedowns, but they are few and far between due to lack of wrestling ability." EXACT same experience I had when I was a "guest instructor" at a weekend kung-fu camp a year or two ago. A guy I was training on the side ran his own Kung Fu school and did a big camp (in the woods) every year, invited me to be that year's grappling instructor. I went and had a very good time; even made the students do some light sparring on the grass. :) Anyway, they had belt testing for some students at the end of the weekend. First they did their individual forms; then did forms with a partner, and it was truly awesome to watch, I'm telling you, "The Matrix" had nothing on these guys, so entertaining. Anyway, then they came to the required actual sparring. At long range they would do fancy poses and tricky misdirections...then it quickly became weak kickboxing, ugly clinch, and sloppy groundfighting. Plus, they all gassed in about 2 minutes. Each to their own, but if they spent as many hours training alive as training "the Matrix", they would probably have some serious skills. |
| 11/18/06 10:41 AM | |
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nowaydo
Edited: 19-Nov-06 02:02 PM Member Since: 01/01/2001 Posts: 3358 |
A friend of mine teaches Silat. I told him to practice solely Judo and/or Wrestling for six months and his Silat will go to another level(functional). The missing ingredient in Silat is "aliveness". The concept of taking a man to the ground isn't mystical, rather it's science. Judo and various forms of wrestling(greco, free and folkstyle, Chinese/Mongolian, Sambo) uses those scientific concepts...against resistance. Because of the Performance payoff(World championships, Gold medals...) Judo/Sambo and wrestling will utilize tactics that are the most efficient against resistance. It's not an aesthetic contest. It's a "use what works best" and conditioning contest. If there was a World or Olympic championship on the line in Silat, Silat would do away with the absurd and focus on what works. Notice how Full-contact karate transitioned into kickboxing in the 70s and 80s..no reverse punches or karate blocking. Through "aliveness" you find what works. Throwing and submission arts all follow the same principles. The difference is training methods and aliveness. |
| 2/16/07 4:35 PM | |
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oldnslow
18
Edited: 16-Feb-07 Member Since: 06/10/2002 Posts: 1664 |
One of the (OK, maybe only) functional Silat takedowns I learned from JKDC was where you get half behind your opponant and drop him/her backwards over your bent knee. Of course this same techniques is found in everything from Judo to JJ to Tai Chi. |
| 2/17/07 5:12 PM | |
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Tball
Edited: 17-Feb-07 Member Since: 09/18/2002 Posts: 206 |
"Through "aliveness" you find what works. Throwing and submission arts all follow the same principles. The difference is training methods and aliveness." I have a Judo coach who confuses me on this topic though. The guy has awesome Judo, been to 2 olympics, trained on a Japanese university team and is all about alive training in grappling (althoug he wouldn't use that term)- then he demonstates his striking stuff and it is the most stiff un-natural dead stuff I think I have seen. |
| 2/17/07 10:24 PM | |
Revolver of Reason
Edited: 17-Feb-07 Member Since: 01/01/2001 Posts: 38508 |
"then he demonstates his striking stuff and it is the most stiff un-natural dead stuff I think I have seen." that's the "Einstein's Political Views" fallacy. it goes something like this - Einstein was a brilliant physicist, therefore his views on a variety of subjects (notably politics) must automatically be as brilliant. that argument doesn't follow from the premise. Einstein may have had a brilliant mind, but his talent in physics does not guarantee insightful contributions to politics. Notably, he also lacks training in any politically related field, like political philosophy or political science, while he had an abundance of physics training and self-study. it, of course, does not mean that his opinions are necessarily wrong, either, just that being brilliant in one field does not imply you necessarily know your ass from your elbow with regards to another, mostly or significantly unrelated field. in other words, you don't necessarily ask a judo coach how to throw a left hook unless he's also done boxing. :) |
| 2/17/07 10:38 PM | |
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JRockwell
61
Edited: 17-Feb-07 Member Since: 03/13/2002 Posts: 2637 |
My whole opinion of Einstein rests on this question: would he have voted George W. in for a second term? :) |
| 2/18/07 3:43 AM | |
|
Tball
Edited: 18-Feb-07 Member Since: 09/18/2002 Posts: 207 |
I think I have heard the theory called the "Halo effect" as well, the unchallenged asumption that someone who is exceptional in one field is worth listening to in another. He has quite a bit of traditional striking experinace as well. Interesting though as I thought the experiance of the alive training would make it more diffulcult to buy into some of the traditional premise. Anyway, he is a good Judo player and a good guy who has fun doing what he does so I guess it dosn't really matter. |
| 2/18/07 9:48 AM | |
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Jorx
5
Edited: 18-Feb-07 Member Since: 06/03/2004 Posts: 1419 |
"I have a Judo coach who confuses me on this topic though. The guy has awesome Judo, been to 2 olympics, trained on a Japanese university team and is all about alive training in grappling (althoug he wouldn't use that term)- then he demonstates his striking stuff and it is the most stiff un-natural dead stuff I think I have seen." That goes to show that one has to really REFLECT upon the concept of aliveness to REALLY GET IT. It is typical in sport coaches and practicioners (e.g. wrestling, boxing, judo). I have seen it quite many times. They train alive in their sport setting, when it comes to SD their ideas are really absurd and also they really can be bullshited by TMA practicioners although in real confrontation they'd smoke 'em. |
| 3/1/07 2:07 PM | |
|
Reaper2k
Edited: 01-Mar-07 Member Since: 06/20/2006 Posts: 49 |
"it, of course, does not mean that his opinions are necessarily wrong, either, just that being brilliant in one field does not imply you necessarily know your ass from your elbow with regards to another, mostly or significantly unrelated field." I was sparring under Muay Thai rules the other day, and my partner accidentally split my eyebrow open with his ass.... |
| 5/8/07 1:17 PM | |
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FlashGordon2002
Edited: 08-May-07 Member Since: 05/23/2002 Posts: 12005 |
It is typical in sport coaches and practicioners (e.g. wrestling, boxing, judo). I have seen it quite many times. They train alive in their sport setting, when it comes to SD their ideas are really absurd and also they really can be bullshited by TMA practicioners although in real confrontation they'd smoke 'em. -------------------- I've seen this a few times. In college, I saw the coach of the boxing club (ex-pro boxer) who was gobsmocked by some wrist locks the instructor of the Aikido class showed him. In reality, there's no way anyone in that Aikido class could've applied anything against his punches. I was also completely confused one time when the instructor of our Judo class had us practicing some standard wrist-grab-escapes-into-wrist-locks for self-defense...I was thinking: WTF? We do Judo...escaping from grabs is something we do all the time in randori!!!! Getting back to the original topic, I believe Silat can be done alive...and if done alive, it'd probably end up looking like boxing or wrestling or Judo with some short strikes thrown in to facilitate or set up throws/take-downs. |
| 5/8/07 3:44 PM | |
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Indrek R.
Edited: 08-May-07 Member Since: 07/04/2002 Posts: 1705 |
I remember a wrestler was asking us to show him Aikido wristlocks. So we showed him some. He was totally blown away. We tried to explain to him that this shit doesn´t work and he doesn´t need it anyway but he had a really hard time grasping it... just goes to show this same point again: "one has to really REFLECT upon the concept of aliveness to REALLY GET IT" I. |
| 5/10/07 12:39 PM | |
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Siciliano
17
Edited: 10-May-07 12:44 PM Member Since: 10/02/2004 Posts: 582 |
One thing I'd like to add to this discussion re Silat: Functional Silat has very similar off-balancing techniques with Muay Thai (plum). That's one thing I've noticed. The mechanics, strategy and preferences are pretty much the same. From what I know, Mark Dellagrotte of Sityodtong Boston mixes some Silat takedowns from the plum - this was what Walt Michalowski of Sityodtong LA told me. I may be wrong, so don't quote me on this. |
| 5/11/07 3:50 AM | |
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John Frankl
23
Edited: 11-May-07 Member Since: 01/01/2001 Posts: 315 |
Nowaydo, I would argue that if your Silat teaching friend did a bunch of Judo then he would win Silat tournaments with Judo, not improved Silat. Matt Furey, former college wrestler, won a Shui Jiao tourney in China. Do you think he took them all down with mystical kung fu chi? The problem with talking about training Silat, Hapkido, Aikido, whatever Alive is that they all very quickly cease to look/feel anything like they once did, and very quickly resemble BJJ/Judo/Wrestling/MMA. John John |
| 5/11/07 10:59 AM | |
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FlashGordon2002
Edited: 11-May-07 Member Since: 05/23/2002 Posts: 12031 |
I saw a clip of people training Aikido "alive". It looked like really bad Judo to me. But I'm hardly an expert on Aikido or Judo so I could've been wrong. |
| 5/11/07 5:42 PM | |
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Matt Thornton
2
Edited: 11-May-07 Member Since: 01/01/2001 Posts: 3242 |
Aikido done in an Alive environment would be forced to evolve, and would eventually look like Judo or wrestling, as mentioned above. So stick with Judo & wrestling to begin with and save yourself a few decades. www.straightblastgym.com |
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