Coach: Condit did as much damage from bottom

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11/26/12 3:06 AM	Ignore \| Quote \| Edit \| Warn Admin \| Vote Down \| Vote Up \| Delete Post
Wasa-B 46 Member Since: 1/1/01 Posts: 42250	Did I mention: "Damage is not a one-round effect Cuts, swelling, and tight joint locks end fights both by doctor's stoppage and by impairing a fighter's ability to perform. Those effects last the duration of the fight and should be scored as such, not just in the round in which they occur." You have ignored this user.

11/26/12 2:56 PM	Ignore \| Quote \| Edit \| Warn Admin \| Vote Down \| Vote Up \| Delete Post
orcus Member Since: 8/1/03 Posts: 74412	"Read my post again. I didn't say Condit didn't do anything, I said Condit was unable mount any serious offense and whatever he did was pretty much instantly nullified by GSP." Can't say I remember much serious offense from GSP either, certainly nothing on the level of Carlos dropping GSP and going after him. You have ignored this user.

11/27/12 9:09 AM	Ignore \| Quote \| Edit \| Warn Admin \| Vote Down \| Vote Up \| Delete Post
lockon 12 Member Since: 11/3/08 Posts: 1138	Lol @ this debate being a waste of time unless we create some new scoring system. Don't be ridiculous, this forum regularly discusses hypothetical fights and rankings. This is absolutely fine. You have ignored this user.

11/27/12 3:17 PM

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Wasa-B 46 The total sum of your votes up and votes down

Edited: 11/27/12 3:19 PM
Member Since: 1/1/01
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And lol at everyone being a keyboard warrior unless you take your issues to the commission, etc.

That's the equivalent of "I'd like to see you say that to his face!" or "As if you could do better!"

"this forum regularly discusses hypothetical fights and rankings"

Thats what forums are for. And the person who said its a waste of time sure wasted a lot of time with us discussing it.

11/29/12 1:06 PM

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4thHorsemen 9 The total sum of your votes up and votes down

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Wasa-B -
4thHorsemen -
Wasa-B -
4thHorsemen -
Wasa-B -
4thHorsemen - I didn't think it was a close fight at all. GSP dominated him, save for that minute or so in the third round. Other than that, Condit was unable to mount any offense whatsoever.

Condit didnt sweep GSP?

Condit was bashing GSP's head all night in his guard?

GSP wasnt defending other sweep and sub attempts?

GSP had his way on the ground all night?

Its 2012 fellas. We need to know the game a bit more.

Read my post again. I didn't say Condit didn't do anything, I said Condit was unable mount any serious offense and whatever he did was pretty much instantly nullified by GSP. The fight wasn't all that competitive, GSP looked like the far superior fighter except for the brief moment in the third. Other than that, GSP dominated Condit. Did anybody think when it went to the judges that it was gonna be close? I highly doubt it. Heck, two of the judges even gave the third round to GSP, which I disagreed with but shows my point.

I get that people are trying to show their respect to Condit because of his never give up style and I agree with it, but to say the fight was very competitive or that Condit did very well is an insult to Condit. He didn't do well and was completely outmatched by a superior fighter.

So I did read it again and you didnt say "Condit was unable to mount any serious offense," you said "Condit was unable to mount any offense whatsoever." Id say theres a bit of a diff there. ;p

I disagree that isnt wasnt competitive. On the ground it was very competitive which is why I posted those earlier questions. Are you thinking it wasnt competitive becauase GSP got the tds at will?

There's a whole world of stuff that was going on on the ground. Also, if it wasnt competitive, how come GSP never was able to tee off with GNP? His GNP campaign was not consistent at all. It was decent but more sporadic. And how come he couldnt get beyond half guard? Again, how come he was reacting or defending what Carlos was doing?

Condit made GSP work on the ground. It was very much a dog fight there and very competitive. If COndit was completely outmatched, GSP would have been teeing off consistently with GNP, really putting the hurt on Condit in a sustained manner, passing at will to not half but side and full mount, GNPing from mount, getting numerous sub attempts but he did none of that.

Regarding R3, i think that is a debatable round to score and comes down to the control vs damage/coming close to a finish arguement again.

Also, you can lose all 5 rounds and lose a dec 50-45 but the 10 must does not tell the entire story. A 50-45 can have each round in a way with the 1 guy edging out each round by a hair and still win 50-45. Im not saying GSP barely won each round but the 10 must tally does not necessarily show how close rounds are.

Sorry yes that's exactly what I mean... That Condit was unable to mount any serious offense whatsoeverever. I don't consider him throwing punches and elbows from off his back as offense, rather as defensive measures. So yes, he was unable to mount anemy serious offense except for the third round.

We can keep going back and forth on this so it's pretty pointless. If you felt that fight was conpetitive then I dunno what to say. I thought it was another dominating performance by GSP in every round except the third. at no other point did I, or anyone around me, feel like Condit was in the fight or was getting the better of GSP, which is pretty much the definition of a competitive fight.

Not sure what you consider "serious offense" then. I know its pretty subjective but you could just as much say GSP didnt put Carlos in any "serious" danger or did any "serious" damage. Again, i dont consider cuts "damage" in themselves but since GSP said himself that he got "hit a lot" and that it "hurt," ima take his word that Carlos did "damage" him outside of the kick and follow up (though GSP is always humble and gives his opponents props).

Again, I think GSP won but with respect, just because the guys you watched with agreed with you doesnt tell me anything necessarily esp when many fans still seem to have a hard time understand what's really going on on the ground, and if you thought GSP was dominating the entire time on the ground, i may have to put you in that category unfortuntately as well.

Which is what I've been saying anyway... That Condit did not put GSP in any danger except for that kick. GSP did not have Condit in any serious danger either, but was able to control the fight, start to finish, hence dominate him.

"Again, I think GSP won but with respect, just because the guys you watched with agreed with you doesnt tell me anything "

I wrote that at no point I, or anyone around me, felt like Condit was in the fight or was getting the better of GSP except for the third round... Not sure how you can disagree with that... Can you tell me when/where Condit was getting the better of GSP except for maybe a couple of punches thrown from off his back?

"many fans still seem to have a hard time understand what's really going on on the ground, and if you thought GSP was dominating the entire time on the ground, i may have to put you in that category unfortuntately as well."

Not sure why you have to pass ridiculous judgments on people just because they see it as a dominant performance by GSP. Just because people disagree with you, doesn't mean they "have a hard time understanding what's really going on". That's just a strange thing to say. I understand what's going on hte ground and if you think GSP was in trouble by putting Condit on his back and keeping him there and not being threatened by submissions for the most part and just taking short punches, then I can just as easily say you don't understand what's going on, but that would be dumb.

I felt like GSP put on a dominant performance from start to finish and Condit really didn't have anything to offer against GSP.

11/29/12 4:24 PM

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Wasa-B 46 The total sum of your votes up and votes down

Member Since: 1/1/01
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"I wrote that at no point I, or anyone around me, felt like Condit was in the fight or was getting the better of GSP except for the third round... Not sure how you can disagree with that... Can you tell me when/where Condit was getting the better of GSP except for maybe a couple of punches thrown from off his back?"

If Condit wasnt in the fight, GSP would have been having his way on the ground (where most of the fight took place). He would have passed guard at will (never had a full and controlling pass iirc), he would have had a sustained damaging GNP campaign (he had ok GNP here and there, never was fully able to posture and tee off consistently), he would have had numerous sub attempts (he had zero).

Condit was "getting the better of GSP" or was the one in control or the one dictating the action when he swept GSP (GSP got position back), and when he was going for numerous other sub and sweep attempts and had more than a "couple punches" off his back - he was doing that ALL NIGHT.

"Not sure why you have to pass ridiculous judgments on people just because they see it as a dominant performance by GSP."

Watch the Gracie Breakdown for starters. They do into detail of praise of GSP (rightfully) but they also highlight how GSP reacted to Condit's sub/sweep attempts (kneebar to triangle for example). If GSP is reacting to that, he is DEFENDING. When one is defending, the other is on offense. Not saying it was all Condit on offense, as mentioned, i thought GSP won but to say that it was all GSP on the ground would leave me to believe that one does not understand grappling or the ground very well (IMHO).

And i say that simply on the basis that i saw a battle on the ground and that its been a long problem for fans not to recognize what bottom guy is doing, same for the judges.

So it may sound harsh or like a dis but im not passing judgement imo, im making an opinion based on what im hearing. No offense meant, i can understand if its taken but to me, if you cant see that GSP had a hard time on the ground or was at least being challenged, then I stick with my "judgement."

" I understand what's going on hte ground and if you think GSP was in trouble by putting Condit on his back and keeping him there and not being threatened by submissions for the most part and just taking short punches, then I can just as easily say you don't understand what's going on, but that would be dumb"

Depends what we mean by "trouble" but on the flipside, what damaging GNP did GSP really throw? When did he put Condit in danger on the ground? As for "being threatened," as above, GSP was clearly reacting or defending what Condit was throwing at GSP thru the course: The sweep, the kneebar to triangle as noted by the Gracies, etc.

11/29/12 4:28 PM

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Wasa-B 46 The total sum of your votes up and votes down

Member Since: 1/1/01
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"That Condit did not put GSP in any danger except for that kick. GSP did not have Condit in any serious danger either, but was able to control the fight, start to finish, hence dominate him."

To add, i dont think either guy had the other in serious danger on the ground - neither had a close sub attempt, neither GNPed with huge damage, like stunning the other. But i dont think GSP was in control at all from start to finish. That is where im questioning the understanding of grappling/ground.

You could argue GSP controlled the majority of it but i would completely disagree he controlled the ground from start to finish.

You arent in control when you're getting swept for starters.

11/29/12 5:37 PM

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Nexuscrawlers

Member Since: 10/23/09
Posts: 7751

Wasa-B - "That Condit did not put GSP in any danger except for that kick. GSP did not have Condit in any serious danger either, but was able to control the fight, start to finish, hence dominate him."

To add, i dont think either guy had the other in serious danger on the ground - neither had a close sub attempt, neither GNPed with huge damage, like stunning the other. But i dont think GSP was in control at all from start to finish. That is where im questioning the understanding of grappling/ground.

You could argue GSP controlled the majority of it but i would completely disagree he controlled the ground from start to finish.

You arent in control when you're getting swept for starters.

Agreed, that fight was such an exciting ground battle because neither guy could really hold onto any serious advantage. GSP came out on top and def won the fight, but condit was right in there keeping GSP on his toes the whole fight. Phone Post

11/30/12 12:57 AM

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Wasa-B 46 The total sum of your votes up and votes down

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Nexuscrawlers -
Wasa-B - "That Condit did not put GSP in any danger except for that kick. GSP did not have Condit in any serious danger either, but was able to control the fight, start to finish, hence dominate him."

To add, i dont think either guy had the other in serious danger on the ground - neither had a close sub attempt, neither GNPed with huge damage, like stunning the other. But i dont think GSP was in control at all from start to finish. That is where im questioning the understanding of grappling/ground.

You could argue GSP controlled the majority of it but i would completely disagree he controlled the ground from start to finish.

You arent in control when you're getting swept for starters.
Agreed, that fight was such an exciting ground battle because neither guy could really hold onto any serious advantage. GSP came out on top and def won the fight, but condit was right in there keeping GSP on his toes the whole fight.

"but condit was right in there keeping GSP on his toes the whole fight."

GSP had to bury his head on Condit's chest quite often.

Every time GSP postured up to GNP, Condit would break his posture so GSP was never able to sustain the GNP consistently and tee off.

GSP was absolutely basing out and defending Condit's offense from the guard (again, as showed by the Gracie Breakdown...who id say understand grappling quite well).

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