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UnderGround Forum >> WarMachine accusing Lloyd Irvin of rape
| 1/10/13 11:12 PM | |
jmoney81
Member Since: 4/2/05 Posts: 86 |
alkysmurf - So this guy is put in a bad situation at a party when he is 20 and most likely drinking. he deflects his way out of participating, and then seems to have cooperated with authorities, I assume he also completed any sentencing requirements for any other charges. Meaning he has served any time for any crime that he was guilty of, in my eyes he is a free man. According to the judge society is repaid. This. Interesting how most of the posters that are calling for his head are also cracking jokes about it here and on other threads. What would you guys have him do? Should he shut down his business, where he has probably helped thousands of people? |
| 1/10/13 11:13 PM | |
BJ bashed into McDs mincemeat
1 
Member Since: 9/26/08 Posts: 4594 |
alkysmurf - So this guy is put in a bad situation at a party when he is 20 and most likely drinking. he deflects his way out of participating, and then seems to have cooperated with authorities, I assume he also completed any sentencing requirements for any other charges. Meaning he has served any time for any crime that he was guilty of, in my eyes he is a free man. According to the judge society is repaid.You have a good point Should he disclose his past to potential rape prevention participants? Maybe now he can start seminars with a dramatic recounting of his ordeal 20 years ago. He was probably pressured by all the guys there to join in. It's not fair for him that the actions of the students have tarnished his sterling. But maybe just some clarification is needed about this old case 
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| 1/10/13 11:18 PM | |
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WoodenPupa
56
Member Since: 7/24/02 Posts: 7331 |
The web page that has the story we're deriving all the info from regarding the 1990 case has related articles with more info, such as: http://articles.dailypress.com/1990-04-20/news/9004200218_1_irvin-gang-rape-case-two-men Blue namer please? Here's a quote: "At one point, one of the men talked about how easy it would be to toss the slightly built, 5-foot-2-inch woman over the balcony. She said she was watching television when one of the men asked her to step into the bedroom so he could talk to her. The woman said that man and a friend began pulling her clothes off and forcing her onto the bed. She said one man had oral sex with her while the other had sexual intercourse with her. "I couldn't breathe and I couldn't understand why they were doing this to me," she said. Other men came in and raped her repeatedly, she said. After the group left, Gatling and Irvin came in and closed the door behind them, she said. "I was lying on the bed crying," the woman testified, maintaining her composure. "I was trying to figure out what I was going to do." At that point, she said, Irvin began having sexual intercourse with her while Gatling held her down and forced her to have oral sex with him. The girl said she did not cry out for help because she was afraid one of the men might follow through with the threat to throw her off the balcony." Brutal. |
| 1/10/13 11:33 PM | |
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WoodenPupa
56
Member Since: 7/24/02 Posts: 7332 |
jmoney81 -alkysmurf - So this guy is put in a bad situation at a party when he is 20 and most likely drinking. he deflects his way out of participating, and then seems to have cooperated with authorities, I assume he also completed any sentencing requirements for any other charges. Meaning he has served any time for any crime that he was guilty of, in my eyes he is a free man. According to the judge society is repaid. This sounds like a utilitarian kind of argument---the calculus of weighing goods---and I don't think it's insane, but don't you think it ignores a significant dimension of moral demands as they are *in practice*? Don't we need, in reality, a verbal confession before we accept services rendered (Lloyd running a school) as payment for the crime? 2Jupes said it well. The legal dimension is what it is, but Lloyd shouldn't expect to skirt by in the public eye. The hell to pay THERE cannot be argued away slick-willy fashion, and fake confessions rarely work (except in white collar crime, where politicians ride on the fact that money is, compared to flesh, abstract, and so can confess to "mistakes" and expect to get a pass). |
| 1/10/13 11:37 PM | |
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WoodenPupa
56
Member Since: 7/24/02 Posts: 7333 |
Instead of "Lloyd running a school" I should have used the terms "helping people," as that can be argued compensatory for the crimes (although as I stated I don't buy the argument). |
| 1/10/13 11:38 PM | |
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Escopeta
Member Since: 6/29/11 Posts: 486 |
Good Lord. Lloyd Irvin Rape Academy. Fuck him and his students. |
| 1/10/13 11:42 PM | |
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Stache
15
Member Since: 10/16/10 Posts: 5642 |
Don't worry, I'm sure someone will explain away the above quotes. |
| 1/10/13 11:43 PM | |
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WoodenPupa
56
Member Since: 7/24/02 Posts: 7334 |
"A third defendant, 23-year-old Robert A. Ford, was scheduled to be tried this morning in Circuit Court for rape, but Kerns said prosecutors decided to drop the charge after talking with the victim's father last week by telephone from Ohio. Kerns said he was told the woman had said in a family meeting July 30 that she remembered Ford being in the room while she was being attacked, but she could not say positively whether he participated." http://articles.dailypress.com/1990-08-08/news/9008080198_1_woman-claims-hampton-university-ford So that's 1 of the other 5. It's really unfortunate this all happened before DNA testing became prevalent and reliable, which I think was the mid 90's. |
| 1/10/13 11:50 PM | |
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WoodenPupa
56
Member Since: 7/24/02 Posts: 7335 |
"The woman - who weighed 98 pounds at the time of the attack - said she drank a small amount of Southern Comfort liquor at the apartment. After a while, she said, Thompson invited her into Gatling's bedroom. She said Smith was already in there, sitting on the floor. Within minutes, she said, both men sexually attacked her. Soon, she said, others poured into the room and began raping and sodomizing her. One man slapped her when she bit him; another punched her after she wriggled free enough to push him away. The woman said she fell asleep after the attack ended in the early morning. She said Gatling drove her back to campus, and she contacted police that evening after getting in touch with her mother and a friend on campus. In April 1990, Gatling was convicted of sodomy and sentenced to seven years in prison. In the same trial, Lloyd E. Irvin Jr. was acquitted. In March of this year, Derrick C. Evans, another Bowie State student, was convicted of attempted rape. He was later sentenced to five years in prison." http://articles.dailypress.com/1991-06-25/news/9106250068_1_raped-dorm-room-trials So that's another one. |
| 1/10/13 11:53 PM | |
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WoodenPupa
56
Edited: 01/11/13 12:01 AM Member Since: 7/24/02 Posts: 7336 |
The girl testified in every case, too. That's some strength right there. Mostly what stops victims from coming forward in the first place is the fear and humiliation involved in testifying (the defense will try to paint the victim as a whore every time). *edited to change "prosecution" to "defense"* |
| 1/10/13 11:54 PM | |
2JupitersTooMany
648
Member Since: 5/14/06 Posts: 31772 |
WoodenPupa - The web page that has the story we're deriving all the info from regarding the 1990 case has related articles with more info, such as:Testimony like this, channeled through an old news outlet, is of course worth nothing and anyone disturbed by it should consult the Master before passing judgment. After all, we weren't there and the whole thing was probably a silly misunderstanding.
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| 1/10/13 11:55 PM | |
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Fedors Jim Jams
Member Since: 12/2/11 Posts: 1015 |
Escopeta - Good Lord. Lloyd Irvin Rape Academy. Fuck him and his students. lloyd irvin is a piece of shit and so is anyone who supports him and his rape academy. the only thing worse than a rapist is a pedophile. fuck anyone who thinks otherwise. |
| 1/10/13 11:59 PM | |
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jmoney81
Member Since: 4/2/05 Posts: 89 |
WoodenPupa -jmoney81 -alkysmurf - So this guy is put in a bad situation at a party when he is 20 and most likely drinking. he deflects his way out of participating, and then seems to have cooperated with authorities, I assume he also completed any sentencing requirements for any other charges. Meaning he has served any time for any crime that he was guilty of, in my eyes he is a free man. According to the judge society is repaid. Ok, so you think if Lloyd came out and publicly apologized and said... he was absolutely sorry for what he had done, he's not that person, and he's tried to do everything he can since then to help people (which from the outside it looks like he has done in many respects), you'd would what, forgive him? Or does he need to shut down his business? Go to prison? What's the end result with all this? How would he best resolve it, if not in what he has actually done by helping people? |
| 1/11/13 12:01 AM | |
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WoodenPupa
56
Member Since: 7/24/02 Posts: 7337 |
And what looks like the last 2, although it doesn't add up to 7: "Michael P. Thompson and Charles H. Smith Jr., both of whom were 18-year-old freshmen at Bowie State University in Maryland at the time of the October 1989 attack, were identified by the victim in court Monday as the initiators of a night of violence and repeated sexual assaults. Following two days of testimony, a Circuit Court jury of 10 women and two men deliberated an hour and a half before finding Smith and Thompson guilty of all charges. Jurors recommended a sentence of five years in prison on each conviction." http://articles.dailypress.com/1991-06-26/news/9106260101_1_sentence-bowie-state-university-jury-s-recommendation So Lloyd is the only guy who slipped out of this. Amazing. Was it here he realized his potential for slick salesmanship? |
| 1/11/13 12:08 AM | |
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TheTankEngine
Member Since: 6/21/03 Posts: 1547 |
Jason Reinhardt - this dissapoints me. (if true) However, college kids do some realy really dumb shit, and if this did happen, i am sure Lloyd regrets its terribly. Think about this everyone: First of all, let me say this...I do not condone or even think this kind of thing is the least bit funny nor do i take it lightly. it actually discusts me. (just remember, yes, certain girls do sometimes place themselves in compromising situations and some may say "they asked for it" I don't personally believe any woman "asked for it". Here's what i want to get accross.... All the "I bet he regrets it" shit is interesting, but how do you reconcile that with the more recent events. Two of his students doing something similar, but worse. Just a coincidence? With that sort of luck, I wouldn't let any women I cared about go anywhere near LI. He just seems "unlucky" I guess. And I love the use of the standard line of apologists "I don't condone it but..." No buts! As has been pointed out, any guy with a shred of decency would have said something to his buddies & if that didn't work leave the house (not try get a boner while your mate is getting head). A real man would have called for help! |
| 1/11/13 12:14 AM | |
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TheTankEngine
Member Since: 6/21/03 Posts: 1548 |
epic hero - Rape is fucking disgusting, but I don't know exactly what happened that night. I'm not grabbing my pitchfork as of yet, I think Lloyd deserves a chance to explain himself. Didn't he explain himself at the trial? His explanation was that he tried to be the last man standing in his little #rapecrew but couldn't get the "standing" part sorted. And while he was trying to, his buddy was forcing to girl to blow him, for which he was convicted. All the LI apologists need to re-read that bit. While LI was trying to get a stiffy, his buddy was forcing the girl to blow him!! This is fact. The guy was convicted. How the fuck do you defend that? |
| 1/11/13 12:16 AM | |
no-gi_JAMES420
16
Member Since: 12/5/11 Posts: 189 |
Holy shit... No bueno |
| 1/11/13 12:21 AM | |
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TheTankEngine
Member Since: 6/21/03 Posts: 1549 |
randomposter - I am going to write this, and then I'm gonna stop. I don't want to be associated in any way with the idea that Lloyd Irvin did or did not participate in, was present at, and/or didn't do anything to stop a gang rape. And I certainly don't want to be made into some kind of spokesman for that position. I hope you're a tax attorney? It's not a matter of accusing. LI's own DEFENSE to a charge or rape was that couldn't get it up!! By his OWN ADMISSION he had every intent of having intercourse with the girl. While he was trying to get it up, his friend forced the victim to perform oral sex on him. Those are the facts. As an attorney, do you not believe in the jury system? I bet you believe in it when you get a result that suits you? I don't think people's issue is that LI was an "almost" rapist, but rather that his poor judgement & treatment of women as a 20 year old are quite interesting, given a couple of his students (around the same age?) have now been accused of the same thing. |
| 1/11/13 12:23 AM | |
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alkysmurf
23
Member Since: 2/7/09 Posts: 1620 |
Did Li plead out to lesser charges? What charges? Did he walk 100% free? 
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| 1/11/13 12:26 AM | |
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Tha Sandman
Member Since: 3/6/09 Posts: 18 |
I was at TLI up until 3 years ago (contract ended, didn't renew it). I can say that they obviously don't advertise that Lloyd is a rapist (or tried).... A lot of the ppl there are young kids and older adults, so its kinda F@cked up to hate on his students when they had no idea about his case from 1990. I never trained under "master" lloyd because Mike fowler, who is an awesome instructer, ran most of the white belt/blue belt classes. I don't post much (lurker), but if you have any questions i will try to answer them as best as possible. |
| 1/11/13 12:30 AM | |
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WoodenPupa
56
Member Since: 7/24/02 Posts: 7338 |
jmoney81 -WoodenPupa -jmoney81 -alkysmurf - So this guy is put in a bad situation at a party when he is 20 and most likely drinking. he deflects his way out of participating, and then seems to have cooperated with authorities, I assume he also completed any sentencing requirements for any other charges. Meaning he has served any time for any crime that he was guilty of, in my eyes he is a free man. According to the judge society is repaid. Well, this is a good question. He would "best resolve it" by realizing the foulness of his actions in his heart, and communicating that in a public confession, perhaps offering communication to the victim. But the *results* of this are not up to him. That is decided by the public and the victims, with the victim's thoughts taking priority. What CAN'T be allowed is a guilty party dictating the terms of an apology, and expecting results in white-collar politician con-game "mistakes were made" style. |
| 1/11/13 12:30 AM | |
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WoodenPupa
56
Member Since: 7/24/02 Posts: 7339 |
So, what I'm saying is, in cases of forgiveness---and there are cases of MONUMENTAL violence being forgiven in the annals of history, for example in the recent Sandy Hook shooting: http://conservativebyte.com/2012/12/father-of-a-sandy-hook-victim-offers-forgiveness-to-the-troubled-shooter/ ---it usually starts with a confession (though in the Sandy Hook case, as we know, the forgiveness process could not have happened this way, since the perp is dead). The problem as I see it with your "How would he best resolve it, if not in what he has actually done by helping people?" is that his actions were not anyone's demand, not the result of public justice. It becomes in reality another slick-willy argument. I understand the rationale of the argument though: "the total amount of good he's done outweighs the bad." But the victim has first priority, and I think the public should take its cue from what the victim has to say. And she would be very unlikely to forgive him, given that he confessed to nothing when it counted. But IF it helped her move on, say, then why not support her. Understand I'm not starting a "forgive Lloyd" movement. For now, fuck him. But if you're asking what would *I* want, personally, as justice? The mere outing of this information should take care of matters on its own: his business should dwindle, probably to unrecoverable levels. My point in all this is that forgiveness is an important part of the human horizon, and it's worth talking about. But Lloyd can't just point to the past and say "time served." Because nobody will buy it. Will you say a confession at this convenient time will entail crocodile tears? I would agree. But such tears are hard to fake forever. Somebody usually outs the fake confessor. |
| 1/11/13 12:36 AM | |
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Roy Batty
52
Member Since: 6/22/07 Posts: 7285 |
Timothyk - Do you really think this girl went over to hang out with a bunch of dudes, and not have sex with any of them? Do you know how many girls have trains run on them? Or like to be hit while fucked? Or lie about rape to soothe parent anger? Do you realize that a woman can be too drunk to consent? |
| 1/11/13 12:50 AM | |
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WoodenPupa
56
Member Since: 7/24/02 Posts: 7340 |
Utilitarian arguments usually entail exotic thought experiments, which is why I don't weigh them too much. For example, you could say, "Which future world do you want, a world in which ONE woman is harmed, but THOUSANDS are helped and empowered; OR, a world in which ONE woman is unharmed, but THOUSANDS of others unhelped and unempowered? DECIDE!!" In this simple calculus, the events are treated as causally finished. So sure, in SUCH a world, I would take the numerically greater good over the bad. But the problem is, THIS world is not such a world. The far-reaching consequences are incalculable; basically, we live in a world of butterfly effects and we cannot know the global consequences of batting an eyelash much less helping or harming a single person. It seems better to me to live by moral principles that address what we can calculate within reasonable horizons. And backward glances cannot count as part of the calculus of utilitarian estimations, because the reasoning is post-hoc and essentially derived from running a convenient thought experiment in which ALL the consequences are calculated. |
| 1/11/13 1:10 AM | |
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Dogman
Member Since: 3/14/02 Posts: 4887 |
Timothyk - Do you really think this girl went over to hang out with a bunch of dudes, and not have sex with any of them? Do you know how many girls have trains run on them? Or like to be hit while fucked? Or lie about rape to soothe parent anger? WOW!!! |
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