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UnderGround Forum >> Guida vs Hioki: Robbery of the Year candidate
| 1/27/13 3:29 PM | |
Wasa-B
46 
Member Since: 1/1/01 Posts: 42981 |
Elias Cepeda - WHERE at fight takes place is far less important than what actually happens to you or the other guy. I do agree Hioki did not have as much control or offense over the sustained lengthy BUT Clay did not land any significant GNP, he passed only once in 3 rounds to half guard and then did nothing with it, got back in full guard and then Hioki nearly reversed him. Clay was in danger in the guard all 3 rounds iirc, for sure 2 and 3. The bottom line is that sub attempts simply do not get scored highly enough by the US judges - they are near fight ending moves where this "control" thing means little if you are not advancing or GNPing which Clay was not. Hioki also significantly outlanded Guida in strikes. Im shocked a red would have scored it 30-27. |
| 1/27/13 3:29 PM | |
caseharts
336
Member Since: 7/18/11 Posts: 14915 |
Wasa-B - Btw, has anyone had Clay in this much sub trouble on pure grappling alone? How much did Nate have? Seeing some earlier subs in his career but in the UFC, he's only been RNC after getting rocked.Pettis 
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| 1/27/13 3:30 PM | |
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Wasa-B
46
Member Since: 1/1/01 Posts: 42982 |
Hmm...Pettis' is good/underated but dont think its up to Hioki's. |
| 1/27/13 3:30 PM | |
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Wasa-B
46
Member Since: 1/1/01 Posts: 42983 |
Did Pettis have Clay in any sub danger? |
| 1/27/13 3:35 PM | |
MasterofMartialArts
58
Member Since: 10/9/10 Posts: 4707 |
Whoever scored it 30-27 for Guida was clearly playing angry birds instead watching the fight. 
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| 1/27/13 3:35 PM | |
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caseharts
336
Member Since: 7/18/11 Posts: 14916 |
Wasa-B - Did Pettis have Clay in any sub danger?A few times definitely. He kept throwING up. Triangles
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| 1/27/13 3:38 PM | |
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HenryO
Member Since: 8/1/12 Posts: 1792 |
TDogg926 - Takedowns. My friend. Takedowns. Are way overvalued in the "unified" rules of MMA These rules aren't unified at all, they are just the North AMerican interpretation of a great sport and are completely fucking broken |
| 1/27/13 3:42 PM | |
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orcus
Member Since: 8/1/03 Posts: 75822 |
"Guard is not a neutral position. The guy on top is winning for sure" Have you read the Unified Rules scoring criteria? Apparently not. |
| 1/27/13 3:59 PM | |
MdGeist
Member Since: 6/10/12 Posts: 1404 |
caseharts -MdGeist -Guard is not a neutral position. The guy on top is winning for sure if the bottom guy isn't going for subs constantly or sweeps. I thought clay was losing but I knew how judges would react.Pork Sword - I'm just saying that many of these judges fail to understand that an offensive guard qualifies as effective grappling just as much as any other grappling technique and strikes delivered from a fighter maintaining his guard should be scored as significantly under effective striking as a standing strike. As we've seen in this fight and many others, judges have a tendency to place way to much importance on scoring the length of time a fighter mantained top-control during a round. These incompetent judges are stealing rounds from the more active fighters and giving them to the guys that are obviously working the system by stalling in guard. In all their great wisdom, they've set the precedent that being in top-control for a long period of time actually qualifies as a form of offense that out-weighs all other scoring criteria. Just like in BJJ, the guard should be considered a nuetral position in MMA, which means controlling your opponent in his guard for an extended period of time during a round should not be scored under the criteria of effective grappling or octagon control. The guard is somewhat of a stalemate position and simply being in someones guard or half-guard should not qualify as any form of "control" or "offense". |
| 1/27/13 4:35 PM | |
Neil McCauley
Member Since: 12/13/11 Posts: 2871 |
Wasa-B - Btw, has anyone had Clay in this much sub trouble on pure grappling alone? How much did Nate have? Seeing some earlier subs in his career but in the UFC, he's only been RNC after getting rocked. Nate did not have clay in any trouble, but he was also never in trouble himself. That entire fight was a stalemate 30-30 draw imo. Yes that is correct, kenny dropped him with a straight right(iirc) and huerta hit in with a knee before getting the RNC. Diego sanchez also beat the hell out of clay from his back with elbows and was nearly robbed in that fight. I believe it was a split decision. Hilarious because diego deserved a 10-8 first and clearly won the 2nd and 3rd rounds too. Yes Hioki has the best BJJ at FW. He molestes guys like baret yoshida and marlon sandro on the mat. |
| 1/27/13 4:43 PM | |
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Wasa-B
46
Member Since: 1/1/01 Posts: 42985 |
I think Hioki needs to develop more GNP. Like Okami, they do not take advantage of the positions they are in if they advance and open up, i do realize of course a guy like Hioki is technical and knows you can lose position and therefore move further back from a sub if you open up and lose position. Hioki still has zero subs over 4 fights in the UFC though, but he has had everyone except Lamas in sub trouble? cant recall if he had mount on Lamas... |
| 1/27/13 4:43 PM | |
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Wasa-B
46
Member Since: 1/1/01 Posts: 42986 |
To play the UFC judges too, he should do more reverse GNP in guard. |
| 1/27/13 4:50 PM | |
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Neil McCauley
Member Since: 12/13/11 Posts: 2872 |
I wonder how much jetlag has to do with his performances? He looked spectacular against bart pala in japan, but ho-hum in his stateside fights. |
| 1/27/13 4:57 PM | |
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Wasa-B
46
Member Since: 1/1/01 Posts: 42993 |
they've been saying that but the bottom line is that if its an issue, he's 4 fights into the UFC now so he has to recitify that on his own if that is the case. I thought he looked good against Clay, as said, no one has put Clay in that kind of sub trouble without rocking him. His striking looked better too last night, though it did look good against Bart, he dropped Bart with a jab......also Clay also admitted and the judges obviously were fapping to Arianny or something but Hioki hurt Clay a couple times with body shots, one was very early in R1 too where Clay actually bent over. |
| 1/27/13 5:01 PM | |
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Elias Cepeda
21
Edited: 01/27/13 5:03 PM Member Since: 1/1/01 Posts: 19890 |
Wasa-B - Did Pettis have Clay in any sub danger?
From my seat, a lot more than he was last night.
To your well-stated other points, though - I agree that it doesn't matter, in and of itself, where a fight happens, but what happens there....what I was saying is that it also matters how a fight got to where it is, ie. who wanted it there, and which fighter's will and skill prevailed. Hioki's striking counted. Clay overcoming that to take the fight where he wanted counted. Hioki's activity on the bottom counted, but so did Guida's on the ground from on top (constant attempted guard passes and consistent, if not world-shattering, strikes). Hioki didn't succeed in sweeps or (fully) in submissions. Guida did not succeed in guard passes or (fully) in strikes. That is, neither Hioki's submission attempts nor Guida's strikes succeed in ending the fight. I do think Guida completed more punches on the ground than Hioki got even close to completing submission attempts, though. Anyway, the idea that Hioki fought well and closely, and that judging is subjective (ie. especially, what constitutes "danger" or "damage") is fine with me. I suppose even someone seeing things totally but honestly different than I and scoring it for Hioki is possibly reasonable. But the idea that Hioki losing was a "robbery" is out of left field, imo. |
| 1/27/13 5:02 PM | |
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Wasa-B
46
Member Since: 1/1/01 Posts: 42999 |
Btw, im not hating on Clay at all. The Gray fight was an abomination but he still has 3 finishes in his last 5 wins. Its MMA, sometimes, stalemates or "boring" ground sequences happen, that's grappling, that's MMA. Hioki still won though. |
| 1/27/13 5:09 PM | |
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Wasa-B
46
Member Since: 1/1/01 Posts: 43000 |
Elias Cepeda -Wasa-B - Did Pettis have Clay in any sub danger? Yes, will matters but Clay did not impose his will on Hioki. He was completely neutralized on the ground and Hioki had all the significant moments though Clay was more active over the entire course but he still only got 1 half guard pass and nearly all of his GNP attempts were blocked or evaded. Hioki had more damaging GNP from his guard than Clay did, i think Hioki opened up a cut on Clay when he had mission control or whatever. "Hioki's striking counted. Clay overcoming that to take the fight where he wanted counted." - Hioki's volume of strikes landed should count more for simply taking the other guy down becaseu in itself, tds only take a fight to the ground, if there is no GNP or advancement or significant offense, it doesnt mean much, certainly not more than strikes landed standing. "Hioki's activity on the bottom counted, but so did Guida's (constant attempted guard passes and consistent, if not world-shattering, strikes). Hioki didn't succeed in sweeps or (fully) in submissions. Guida did not succeed in guard passes or (fully) in strikes." - Guida's passes are attempts offense but he failed in all of them exect 1. Again, nearly all of his GNP attempts did not land. That should be weighed lower than the significant submission danger Hioki put him in because a submission has a chance to end a fight, Clay couldnt even land any GNP and only got half guard once! "That is, neither Hioki's submission attempts ended the fight nor did Guida's strikes. I did think Guida completed more punches on the ground than Hioki got even close to completing submission attempts, though. " Clay's GNP was so insignificant imo and how could a few pitter shots be weighed as close as good fight ended threats (subs)? How can 1 or 2 arm GNP strikes be even counted as close to a locked and isolated kimura? |
| 1/27/13 5:32 PM | |
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Sal Penis
Member Since: 10/12/11 Posts: 4701 |
TTT
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| 1/27/13 5:34 PM | |
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Wasa-B
46
Member Since: 1/1/01 Posts: 43001 |
Btw, i did watch the fight again this morning and though I still think Hioki won, i dont think it was a wide and clear enough margin for the ol "robbery!" alarm. |
| 1/27/13 5:34 PM | |
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InspiritMick
8
Member Since: 1/6/10 Posts: 5396 |
Saltyballs - Until judges are trained to see an active guard and strikes from the bottom as OFFENSE, then we will continue to have terrible decisions.Yep
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| 1/27/13 5:37 PM | |
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Saltyballs
104
Member Since: 1/1/01 Posts: 6966 |
The problem is his last finish was TWO YEARS AGO. More importantly, his last exciting fight was two years ago. Since 2011, he should've lost to Hioki, had the Maynard debacle, lost to Bendo, and laid on Pettis.
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| 1/27/13 5:42 PM | |
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Wasa-B
46
Member Since: 1/1/01 Posts: 43004 |
Btw, any comments from Hatsu or Dana after the fight? And seems that Rogan was pulling another "Kimora" pronounciation on Hioki, saying "Hey-oki" as if he was wanting to say "A-oki." ;p |
| 1/27/13 5:43 PM | |
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Wasa-B
46
Member Since: 1/1/01 Posts: 43005 |
InspiritMick -Saltyballs - Until judges are trained to see an active guard and strikes from the bottom as OFFENSE, then we will continue to have terrible decisions.Yep How they could not recognize "submissions" and that those things can end fights at this point though....? But to Dana's credit he has been publicly complaining about this for years but its with the ACs not the UFC. I do think a bigger campaign should be started to improve the judging though. |
| 1/27/13 5:44 PM | |
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funwithbakedgoods
Member Since: 7/31/12 Posts: 728 |
Close fight according to current judging standards. Hardly a candidate for robbery of the year. |
| 1/27/13 5:48 PM | |
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Saltyballs
104
Member Since: 1/1/01 Posts: 6967 |
Wasa-B - Btw, im not hating on Clay at all. The Gray fight was an abomination but he still has 3 finishes in his last 5 wins. Its MMA, sometimes, stalemates or "boring" ground sequences happen, that's grappling, that's MMA.I hear what you're saying, but you bringing up "3 finishes in his last 5 wins" inadvertently underscores what people are complaining about. Those 3 finishes happened in 2010/2011. The one against Shannon Gugerty was almost three years ago! Two straight years of lackluster decisions has killed his rep.
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