UnderGround Forum >> Elite tier of strikers in MMA?

orcus - 

Manhoef hasn't had much opportunity to show striking prowess in MMA. He had a nice legkick clinic against Lawler before getting one-punch KTFO, and he had an ugly brawl with Cyborg. Other than that he's usually getting taken down and subbed or just smashing some nobody with a haymaker hook or something.

"K-1 grandprix winner and his monstrous power make him the elite striker at hw"

He looked good against Brock but terrible in his immediately previous fight against Werdum.

Sorry but when this was one fight ago I have to laugh at calling this guy god tier like Pettis, Anderson, and Aldo:

 

"All those gifs show is that Overeem obviously didn't respect Werdum's stand up, and those gifs show why."

Yeah, you always backpedal across the ring as fast as you can when a guy whose standup you don't respect at all is throwing punches at you. Not respecting standup = Anderson vs Okami or Bonnar. Not Overeem vs Werdum.

What the gifs show is, just one fight ago, the guy that some are putting forth as God Tier Striking standing around flat-footed and getting repeatedly one-twoed by a guy who looks slow and crappy, and even being driven across the ring by him.

"If you think Werdum's stand up vs Overeem was the same stand up Werdum used against Russow and Roy Nelson, I don't know what to tell you.  "

So what you're saying is Werdum looked worse than usual that night and yet still managed to repeatedly one-two Overeem right in his God Tier face and chase him across the ring with no devastating counter forthcoming from the Reem.

"How do you think Nate Quarry looked against Kalib Starnes?"

Hmm. Nate chased a fleeing opponent. Werdum chased a fleeing opponent and tagged him multiple times with crap strikes. Are you trying to say Quarry looked like shit against Kalib? Because the only one who looked bad in that fight was Starnes.

"Why do you think Overeem was awarded as the unanimous winner in his fight with Werdum?"

Beats me.  It's hilarious that you're implying that Overeem must have done something right because the judges -- MMA's infamous judges -- gave him the win.

Fightmetric in fact has Werdum winning under both the 10-point must system AND their own system, and -- unsurprisingly -- also landing more strikes (both significant and otherwise) than Overeem: http://blog.fightmetric.com/2011/06/overeem-vs-werdum-ii-official.html . What do you make of that?

"But Orcus, lets get down to brass tax. Since you give Overeem zero credit, how about we do a sig bet, I got Overeem, and you got JDS.  You tucked on this bet before, and my guess is you'll tuck again. If that fight is made, what do you say about being confident to bet on a striker against Overeem in mma?"

It's brass "tacks". How can I tuck on a bet I never offered? And do you see me putting JDS's name forth here? In any case Overeem will probably take him down just like he did Buentello and Rogers and Kharitonov and Crocop, i.e., basically every actual striker he's beaten in MMA. 

"i cannot believe u took the time to make gifs of all that extremely mediocre technique."

I didn't make them, and they are showing the absurdity of putting Overeem in the class of Aldo, Anderson, and Pettis at this time.

"I double dog, no scratch that, I triple dog DARE YOU to make an argument as to why the same could NOT be said substituting Overeem for Quarry and Kalib for Werdum."

Well, let's see, let me think if I can think of ways Overeem/Quarry comparison does not work: Quarry did not retreat from Kalib, nor did Kalib repeatedly land strikes to the face of Quarry, nor did anyone ever at any point suggest Quarry might be one of the most dazzling strikers in the sport. I'm having trouble figuring out just how I'm supposed to see any similarity between the two fights or any of the four fighters.

"I don't need a computer with obvious glitches to dictate how I judge a fight. "

What's the glitch in this instance?

"Let me ask you straight up since you haven't said so, Who do you think won the fight between Overeem and Werdum in Strikeforce?"

I've only watched it the one time. Iirc, I thought Werdum won but expected the judges to pick Overeem.

"Easy, you can tuck on a bet that was offered to you. You've done it twice now. Is there any heavyweight who you think their stand up is better than Alistair that you're willing to sig bet me on?"

I don't know whose standup is better than Alistair's because I haven't seen Alistair beat anyone good standing in MMA yet, so I have no yardstick of his ability; I've been saying for years that Alistair SHOULD be the best in the world in MMA, but has yet to prove he can live up to his potential. In any case, even if he does eventually prove himself the best striker at HW, that doesn't put him in the tier of the trio in the OP. Similarly, I didn't include any welterweights because I couldn't think of any who met the description either. 

Bottom line is absolutely nobody is putting Alistair in the discussion for anything he has done in MMA, which is funny because that's what the thread is about. He got kTFO by Chuck standing, TKO'd by Rogerio standing IIRC, got KTFO by Kharitonov standing while running away; he made little to no attempt to stand with Buentello or Rogers and took them down to win on the ground; he subbed Igor with iirc no striking exchanges; he did outstrike Vitor in their first fight at least but won on the ground (I think the rematch was mostly ground-based but I never saw it). His few impressive standup performances in MMA *at all* were basically brute force wins over really overmatched opponents in the last couple years.

P.S.. No, turning down a bet you never proposed is not dicktucking, because you never waved your dick around that in the first place. 

"Anderson looked shitty against Maia"

That would be a vastly better example of "not respecting the opponent" than Werdum/Overeem. It was a truly bizarre and ugly fight, but Anderson spent most of it flat-out clowning Maia and playing games with him:

An anomalous fight that has people to this day wondering what on earth Anderson was doing that night several years ago; yet in which he still displayed flashes of brilliance, creativity, and a stunning lack of respect for his opponent.

"There are lots of elite strikers that are NOT considered head and shoulders above the rest of their division, not sure if you wanted to talk about those."

Sure, as long as they're extraordinary. No need to limit to one per division. E.g. your Machida and Jones, and Pettis and Aldo might well end up in the same div themselves, either 145 or 155.

You talk about old Alistair Pride fights, why don't you talk about how Ryu Chonan beat Anderson on the feet? Or is it possible a fighter can improve over time?

Since you like gifs so much

American1177 - Lol you tards putting Pettis at the top already. He is great but best in game? You fat slobs start to train

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Do me a favor, and watch the fight again. Please give me your detailed opinion as to why you think Werdum won the fight. Tell me what he did that would make him to come out the winner.

Out of 3 rounds, 3 judges scored that Alistair won every round, with the exception that one judge scored Werdum winning 1 round out of the 3.

30-27, 30-27, 29-28

Very anxious to hear your breakdown of how Werdum won.

speaking of, ewerton fought under mma rules last weekend

against a guy with a 1-3 record

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DamnSevern - 

Pro Ice - 

Anderson 

Pettis

Aldo

 

2nd tier

Machida - Not as creative as above - more predictable  No disrespect at all just my opinion

Barboza - Soon elite tier imo

Manhoef - Technique + power - best left hook in the sport imo

Overeem -  Power + technique 

Machida is more creative than Aldo

whoabro - 

Gokudamus stole my name -

whoabro -  Reem's striking in mma is pretty awful imo from a technical perspective-- very stiff, no head movement, poor footwork, relies on his newfound size. And anyone who knows anything knows that his gp win had a LOT to do w injured and old opponents

While i would agree Overeem is not that technical and relies too much on his size, i do think he doesnt get enough credit for his K-1 career

I can buy that he got the lucky draw in the GP. But he also beat Aerts in a super fight, a few months before that Aerts had just beaten Semmy Schilt who was almost invincible at the time. Then of course he went 1-1 against Badr Hari and lost a close decision to Remy Bonjasky. At worst one can say he was a top K-1 fighter but not the best K-1 fighter

And i dont see why he gets singled out for being lucky in the GP. Ernesto Hoost won a GP after being KTFO in the opening round, then he gets the alternate spot and fights Ray Sefo in the semis who injures his shin early in a freak accident. That leaves Hoost in the finale after a combined 5 minutes total in the ring against Lebanner who had just finished a 3 round war against Mark Hunt

Or how about Bonjasky who won a GP by beating Cyril Abidi and Musashi.


Sorry orcus for thread highjack lol

All fair points-- im not saying he sucks or anything, just that his GP win (and k1 career in general) doesnt mean hes a striking god. He is certainly very good and deserves credit for what hes done, especially the hari win.