UnderGround Forum >> Elite tier of strikers in MMA?

Billyz - Lyoto - easy to call
Aldo - he does some amazing things
Anderson - obvious and probably the best
Pettis - guy just keeps on amazing people
Call me crazy and hate to say it but.. Jones (think about it before you hate he dropped Lyoto in a good back and forth and Vitor barely ever touched him)

no particular order but Anderson would be top of the list regardless

"You talk about old Alistair Pride fights, why don't you talk about how Ryu Chonan beat Anderson on the feet? Or is it possible a fighter can improve over time?"

Yes, a fighter can improve....is your argument that Alistair has shown so much improvement since the Werdum fight -- i.e. in the ONE fight he has had since then, against post-surgeries Brock -- that it has launched him into the Wizard Tier?

It's really simple, which MMA fights should I watch to see Alistair show the kind of extraordinary standup displayed by the three guys in the OP?

"Very anxious to hear your breakdown of how Werdum won."

Because nothing of any significance happened in the fight, therefore Werdum gets the nod for attacking with some combos as shown, throwing and landing more overall, and one half-assed sub attempt. I gave you the Fightmetric link, why don't you just look at their breakdown if you're so "anxious"? More importantly, who gives a fuck? The fight was a turd just like Werdum/Arlovski, Maia/Weidman, etc. I would be happy if it were a draw or a double loss. Even if I watched it 60 more times and decided that Overeem edged it out, you think that would somehow convince me that he is a spectacular striker? 

Did Anderson improve leaps and bounds after his Maia fight?

Orcus says Werdum beat Overeem in their Strikeforce bout. 

I have nothing further to add your honor.

D241 - 

Did Anderson improve leaps and bounds after his Maia fight?

 

Orcus says Werdum beat Overeem in their Strikeforce bout. 

I have nothing further to add your honor.

"Did Anderson improve leaps and bounds after his Maia fight?"

No. Did Anderson display flashes of brilliance and a complete display of contempt for his opponent in the Maia fight? Yes. Did Maia out-throw and outland Anderson? No. Did Anderson outland Maia 62 to 20? Yes. 

If you're trying to say Anderson didn't improve leaps and bounds after the Maia fight, then why are you bringing up "improvement" in the first place to defend Alistair's performance against Werdum?

"Orcus says Werdum beat Overeem in their Strikeforce bout. "

I said if I remember right, I thought he won but didn't really care because they both sucked. Fightmetric, as I said, had Werdum winning both under their own system AND the 10-point must system. 

Also as I said, no matter who won the decision, it doesn't keep Alistair from looking like a mediocre striker in that fight.

"I have nothing further to add your honor."

Of course you don't, you don't have any kind of argument to make. The fact that you are fixating on the irrelevant question of who got or deserved the decision, and trying to equate Alistair's performance to Nate Quarry's against Kalib Starnes, really says it all.

I'll ask you again the one question that matters in this discussion, that you keep avoiding: Which mma fights should I watch to see Alistair display the same kind of standup brilliance as the three guys in the OP?

There's nothing I can say to make you change your mind on how you feel about Overeem's striking skills.

Is there anything Overeem can do to change your mind since he hasn't done anything in your eyes thus far?

1.I stand by my stance that Benson Henderson isn't the same type of wrestler as Gray Maynard is, and Anthony Pettis will have to show he's improved with his wrestling(since the Guida fight) by fighting him eventually. Pettis getting the next title shot is fine by me. Perhaps I underestimate how good Benson's wrestling is, however I don't feel he depends on it to win fights as much as  Gray does.

2.Overeem in mma may not have proven himself YET as far as en elite striker, so I will give in a little bit and say in terms of "mma accomplishments", the 3 you mentioned in the OP have a stronger argument in the realm of mma striking accomplishments.  On the flip side though, I think you aren't giving enough credit for Overeems striking accomplishments in striking only competition.

3.Even though I'll concede in the top tier striking argument that an argument can be made he isn't top tier when compared to Aldo/Pettis/Anderson, it is obvious to anyone with eyes that Werdum DID NOT WIN THAT FIGHT. I hope you can give in a little bit there as it won't take anything away from your arguments in this thread, and at least show that you know how to judge a fight correctly. I really hope you concede that Werdum didn't win that fight.

http://twitter.yfrog.com/jvtcbafemsthouztxjzseotwz

Infamous Ed - 

Billyz - Lyoto - easy to call
Aldo - he does some amazing things
Anderson - obvious and probably the best
Pettis - guy just keeps on amazing people
Call me crazy and hate to say it but.. Jones (think about it before you hate he dropped Lyoto in a good back and forth and Vitor barely ever touched him)

no particular order but Anderson would be top of the list regardless

I say wait on jones until he moves up to heavyweight. We'll see if his striking skill set, rather than his size, will hold up.

"Is there anything Overeem can do to change your mind since he hasn't done anything in your eyes thus far?"

To change my mind that Overeem is on the level of the guys in the OP, all Overeem has to do is display their level of brilliance in the cage. 

"1 bad fight vs his last 10 Mma and kickboxing fights.."

If you look at his last 10 MMA fights you see him taking a lot of guys down and fighting them there rather than standing. In fact you've basically got Duffee, Fujita, and Brock, all three guys that Overeem brute forced rather than displayed technical brilliance against.

Honestly even if you look at his K-1 fights, do you see brilliance? Or do you see a roided up monster powering through guys for the most part? I've only seen a few of them (including a couple losses).

The thread is really about that kind of brilliance, not just getting lots of KOs. Like I would not have put a prime Wand in the conversation, for example, despite his inarguable effectiveness.

orcus likes to use unique angles, and this is one of those times. The angle he's using though, his Op is accurate and the stipulations of "mma only" prevent Overeem(at this time) for being conisdered top tier.

It's funny though how orcus shits on Overeem and attributes his K1 success to being a roided up powerhouse. This coming from the same guy who was all up on Brocks nuts and thinks/thought Brock would beat Fedor.

Why? b/c of his superior technique and mma experience? It was his size and athletisism that helped get him as far as it did.

But back to the topic, Overeem and Nick Diaz may be elite strikers in mma, however until they are champions with a few wins as champion, they don't, on paper have the accomplishments/credentials to match the other 3.

But still lol @ Werdum getting robbed in his fight against Overeem and should've won. I watched that fight yesterday via the links on this thread and it justifies you are either incredibly hard headed and cannot admit when you are wrong, or you have a hard time grasping fighting.

liquidrob - That Werdum fight was awful, but Overeem won pretty easily, they could have scored 30 TDs for him when Werdum would flop every time he touched or clinched him, even knock downs when Overeem would touch him with a knee and he would fall over

There were several times Overeem dropped Werdum.

The biggest problem though, is it's hard to determine how many of those drops were unavoidable, and how many were Werdum trying to pursuay Overeem to follow him to the ground by willingly going down, or by not trying to stay on the feet.

It's horrible to use one (obviously bad) fight to analyze a fighter, but some people do it to fit their agenda. What I will say from WATCHING the fight a 2nd time, is there were some heavy shots landed that Werdum took pretty well. Werdum definitely has toughness.

But I paid for tickets to that event and was hoodwinked. Bought tickets when Gina Carrano was supposed to fight, that didn't happen nor did the paying fans get a substitute fight. Main event totally sucked, and I blame Werdum for that. That was very dishonorable butt flopping like that and pleaing to your opponent to "please come into my guard, you're too good on the feet".

"orcus likes to use unique angles, and this is one of those times. The angle he's using though, his Op is accurate and the stipulations of "mma only" prevent Overeem(at this time) for being conisdered top tier."

The "angle" is that I created this thread to discuss a particular kind of fighter, the kind that is an artist whose brilliance is a pleasure to watch. Chris Leben could be 200-0 and I still wouldn't put him in that class.

"Why? b/c of his superior technique and mma experience? It was his size and athletisism that helped get him as far as it did."

So? Did you see me talking about what a technical artist Brock was in the ring? Nope.

"It's horrible to use one (obviously bad) fight to analyze a fighter, but some people do it to fit their agenda."

I keep asking you to point me to some of the apparent multitude of fights where Overeem DOES show the brilliance of the guys in the OP, yet you seem to be bafflingly unable to do so, all while still continuing to complain about his omission. In fact have you mentioned a single fight?

"I blame Werdum for that. That was very dishonorable butt flopping like that and pleaing to your opponent to "please come into my guard, you're too good on the feet"."

Overeem didn't seem to want to engage when Werdum initiated striking exchanges either (as shown in the gifs), so why do you blame Werdum?

yabadaba - 

From another thread:

Jack Slack

mma shill -  First let me say, I love your articles and I hope you keep them coming. Since reading your articles, I've realized that I don't have a very good understanding of striking at all in mma. I thought the Diaz bros and BJ Penn were some of the best strikers in mma until you pointed out many of their flaws. Now it seems like every mma fighter is a bad striker that doesn't even understand the basics. I'm wondering who you think are the top five best strikers in mma and why?

I'm always reluctant to name the top strikers in MMA because everyone makes mistakes and errors. That's not just in MMA but in the highest levels of professional boxing and bjj. Nobody achieves perfection.

It's impossible to stay disciplined all the time, the greats are the ones who can stay discplined the longest. I consider Manny Pacquiao one of the most technically disciplined boxers of all time - in, moves his head, exits on an angle. But just the other day Marquez was able to catch him getting wild.

In truth there is a great deal of underemphasis on angling, handfighting and the actual science of striking in a lot of top level camps even in boxing and kickboxing. Fighting tends to be approached in a combinations and cover up way, with an emphasis on power and conditioning rather than science.

 

I suppose the criteria for best MMA striker from a scientific standpoint would be based in discipline and versatility. Guys who can adapt their style against anyone: like AS, GSP, Fedor when he was fighting. There's very few guys who can adapt their striking style to the opponent.

The next tier down would be guys who have a pretty samey striking game in every fight but still execute it flawlessly - like JDS, Aldo etc.

Then there's the guys who do the same thing in every fight but have had their flaws exposed already but can beat MOST guys with their A game like Belfort, Penn the Diaz brothers.

I agree with almost everything you said, but you really think Pac is one of the most technical boxers of all time?

Granted, he has shored up a lot of his defensive flaws since working with Freddy, but he's still mainly an offensive fighter with little defense to speak of.  As far as being an offensive boxer-puncher, he may be the most technical, but I think there are many boxers right now that are more technical in their overall boxing than Manny.

Pacquiao gets clipped often by any decent counter-striker (Marquez, Morales) as he tends to look for the left hand too much and then sit on it when he lands it (ala Marquez KO loss).

Edit - fuck, did not realize until now it's from another thread.  Maybe Slack will see it anyways.