OtherGround Forum >> 10 Pro-Gun Myths: Shot Down

awilson82 - 

"Myth #4: More good guys with guns can stop rampaging bad guys.
Fact-check: Mass shootings stopped by armed civilians in the past 30 years: 0
• Chances that a shooting at an ER involves guns taken from guards: 1 in 5"

Fact one while technically true is true because armed civilians are not allowed in almost all the locations where the shootings happen. The shooter in the I believe it was Oaklahoma mall shooting was seen by the shooter and aimed at him but didnt fire because he could hit bystanders behind the shooter. As often happens as soon as the shooter saw armed resistance he took his own life.

Id rather take the 1 in 5 chance and have an armed guard who could respond to a shooting than have not.

Tidbits - 

awilson82 - 

 

 In states with Stand Your Ground and other laws making it easier to shoot in self-defense, those policies have been linked to a 7 to 10% increase in homicides."

 

Many of which are ruled justifiable or at worst manslaughter and the source is quoting the amount reported not the amount of convictions.

"Many of which" LOL again. So if you have an increase of 7-10% in your rate of homicide and 1% of those homicides are justifed guess what? You still have an increase in homicides. killing is killing, justified or not. Also your term "Many of which" is BS. Provide numbers not an opinion.

Numbers on that are hard to prove but even the FBI admits that there is a significant number of justifiable homicides in theit statistics. And again shouldnt they base it of convictions not reports? Basing it off reports is misleading and doesnt provide a clear picture as with many of their stats.

gregbrady - 

awilson82 - 

"Myth #4: More good guys with guns can stop rampaging bad guys.
Fact-check: Mass shootings stopped by armed civilians in the past 30 years: 0
• Chances that a shooting at an ER involves guns taken from guards: 1 in 5"

Fact one while technically true is true because armed civilians are not allowed in almost all the locations where the shootings happen. The shooter in the I believe it was Oaklahoma mall shooting was seen by the shooter and aimed at him but didnt fire because he could hit bystanders behind the shooter. As often happens as soon as the shooter saw armed resistance he took his own life.

Id rather take the 1 in 5 chance and have an armed guard who could respond to a shooting than have not.

it wasn't a mass shooting if it got stopped before it took place.


hard for me to take this seriously

Dude walked into a mall with multiple guns and shot and killed two people. So what they have to kill 9-10 people before its considered a mass shooting stopped? Id tather it be prevented by an armed citizen and lives saved.

awilson82 - 

Tidbits - 

awilson82 - 

"Myth #2: Guns don't kill people—people kill people.
Fact-check: People with more guns tend to kill more people—with guns. The states with the highest gun ownership rates have a gun murder rate 114% higher than those with the lowest gun ownership rates. Also, gun death rates tend to be higher in states with higher rates of gun ownership."

Wow no shit so states where people have guns have more gun murders? Whoda thunk it. Except who fucking cares TOTAL murder rates matter not firearm murder rates. The murder rate in Wyoming and Montana where gun ownership is high and gun murders are supposedly high are 3.2 and 2,8 respectively. Which is well below national average. Not to mention why do total gun deaths matter more than half are suicides.

LOL. Talk about cherry picking your argument. The FACT is guns kill, period. Will people still kill others or commit suicide without them? Yes, but easy access to them means a greater chance of lethality (success).

How is that cherry picking the argument? They try to make a point about the high gun ownership states when they have some of the overall lowest murder rates its stupid and misleading like most of the list.

Which is better a murder rate that is 100% gun murders but a exponentially lower murder rate or a murder rate that is 0% gun murders but the overall murder rate is 5x higher?

Besides if you want to talk about cherry picking arguments that source is terrible.

Chief Meteorologist Brick Tamland - Also, Tidbits will be the FIRST person to attack the source of an article on Drudge Report. Go fuck your hypocritical ass OP.

http://www.amazon.com/More-Guns-Less-Crime-Understanding/dp/0226493660

I declare everything in the book above a "fact", I have now throughly countered every gun-control advocacy myth.

- Tidbits alter ego.

this will go well

Tidbits - 

Chief Meteorologist Brick Tamland - Also, Tidbits will be the FIRST person to attack the source of an article on Drudge Report. Go fuck your hypocritical ass OP.

Because Drudge's sources themselves are partisan and suspect. Please provide a single link to anything from Drudge that was from a non partisan source.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/jan/30/inside-the-ring-new-al-qaeda-threat/

Washington Times?

CBS okay by you tidbits?  All of these links are from drudge RIGHT NOW.

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2013/01/30/officials-bronx-women-busted-at-jfk-with-cocaine-in-diapers/

Darup -  I don't think op understands what facts mean.

Pic of OP:

awilson82 - 

"Myth #2: Guns don't kill people—people kill people.
Fact-check: People with more guns tend to kill more people—with guns. The states with the highest gun ownership rates have a gun murder rate 114% higher than those with the lowest gun ownership rates. Also, gun death rates tend to be higher in states with higher rates of gun ownership."

Wow no shit so states where people have guns have more gun murders? Whoda thunk it. Except who fucking cares TOTAL murder rates matter not firearm murder rates. The murder rate in Wyoming and Montana where gun ownership is high and gun murders are supposedly high are 3.2 and 2,8 respectively. Which is well below national average. Not to mention why do total gun deaths matter more than half are suicides.

That's a bullshit stat (the one Mother Jones is giving) because it relies on people reporting ownership of a gun  (i.e. legallly owned guns), yet many areas with low reported ownership (i.e. illegallly owned guns) have the highest gun crime rates, such as Chicago.  In fact, inner city urban regions completely skew gun crime rates in the US. If these regions, which often have the most restrictive gun regulations, are left out of the determination of gun crime rates, the rate drops substantially.  The Abstract of the study cited even says they controlled for "urbanization" indicating they modified the numbers based on this, and other factors (e.g. "state level" crime rates), and they even that inferences, such as the one Mother Jones is making here, is not warranted.  

10 Myths About Gun Control

Disarming the Myths Promoted by the Gun Control Lobby

Trust - 

awilson82 - 

"Myth #2: Guns don't kill people—people kill people.
Fact-check: People with more guns tend to kill more people—with guns. The states with the highest gun ownership rates have a gun murder rate 114% higher than those with the lowest gun ownership rates. Also, gun death rates tend to be higher in states with higher rates of gun ownership."

Wow no shit so states where people have guns have more gun murders? Whoda thunk it. Except who fucking cares TOTAL murder rates matter not firearm murder rates. The murder rate in Wyoming and Montana where gun ownership is high and gun murders are supposedly high are 3.2 and 2,8 respectively. Which is well below national average. Not to mention why do total gun deaths matter more than half are suicides.

 

That's a bullshit stat (the one Mother Jones is giving) because it relies on people reporting ownership of a gun  (i.e. legallly owned guns), yet many areas with low reported ownership (i.e. illegallly owned guns) have the highest gun crime rates, such as Chicago.  In fact, inner city urban regions completely skew gun crime rates in the US. If these regions, which often have the most restrictive gun regulations, are left out of the determination of gun crime rates, the rate drops substantially.  The Abstract of the study cited even says they controlled for "urbanization" indicating they modified the numbers based on this, and other factors (e.g. "state level" crime rates), and they even that inferences, such as the one Mother Jones is making here, is not warranted.  

 

10 Myths About Gun Control

Disarming the Myths Promoted by the Gun Control Lobby

 

New Leaf 1.0 - The source should be attacked, just like you would attack it if the source was known to provide dishonest and biased information the other direction.

Anyone who intentionally reads Fox/Huffington/Mother Jones has no place in a real conversation about issues. Those who intentionally seek misinformation should be ignored.

BTW - there are plenty of "facts" that dispute the "facts" in that article.

Let me know when you can overcome the "fact" that Switzerland has the third highest rate of gun ownership in the world and one of the lowest incidents of violence around. I can produce "fact" after "fact" after "fact" to dispute your "facts." The difference being I use legitimate sources and actually fact check my facts, instead of just assuming they are true because they support what I want to be true.

I still remember you producing a list of "facts" about how much profit a bunch of big companies made and your "facts" were easily disputed by public records and you still thought they counted as "facts." I believe that list came from mother jones too.

Domingo - 

New Leaf 1.0 - The source should be attacked, just like you would attack it if the source was known to provide dishonest and biased information the other direction.

Anyone who intentionally reads Fox/Huffington/Mother Jones has no place in a real conversation about issues. Those who intentionally seek misinformation should be ignored.

BTW - there are plenty of "facts" that dispute the "facts" in that article.

Let me know when you can overcome the "fact" that Switzerland has the third highest rate of gun ownership in the world and one of the lowest incidents of violence around. I can produce "fact" after "fact" after "fact" to dispute your "facts." The difference being I use legitimate sources and actually fact check my facts, instead of just assuming they are true because they support what I want to be true.

I still remember you producing a list of "facts" about how much profit a bunch of big companies made and your "facts" were easily disputed by public records and you still thought they counted as "facts." I believe that list came from mother jones too.

The caveat to Switzerland’s gun ownership is that those same people have also had military service and training with said guns.

Here in the states every yonto gun owner seems to think they’re 007 just because they happen to have a gun. Buying a computer doesn't make you a hacker and buying a gun doesn't make you Chow Yun Fat.

I grew up with guns, still own them, and am a decent shooter. However I wouldn’t trust the average gun owner to shoot an armed attacker any more than a Call of Duty player. Hell, I wouldn’t trust myself either.