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UnderGround Forum >> Cant Stomach Lentz/Nunes, why watch MMA?
| 1/20/13 2:55 PM | |
Wasa-B
42 
Member Since: 1/1/01 Posts: 42795 |
Midway into the 2nd round and Lentz is all over Nunes and dominating him. Everytime anyone dominates a flashy striker with grappling, the fucking "blanket," "wrestlefucking," yada calls come out. Well, seriously, why are you watching MMA if you cannot stomach grappling? Why are you forgetting that grappling is the foundation of MMA? So Lentz didnt finish Nunes with a flying armbar or rolling omoplata. Why, in MMA, do we expect such flashy finishes all the time? They dont happen in all of the individual combat sports like BJJ, boxing, kickboxing, judo, etc. 360 reverse dunks dont happen every 5 min in the NBA. Grand slams dont happen every game in MLB. End to end rushes dont happen much in NFL. What is it about MMA where the fans simply cannot watch and appreciate a normal MMA bout? Like, if you just wanna watch striking, why not watch boxing or kickboxing where grappling is not allowed? That question also gets thrown around a lot too but its a legit question: if you dont like to watch grappling, why not watch something where there is no grappling? Many of you are also criticizing Lentz for not finishing Nunes. Well, what i saw was td after td, all sorts of positional advances and attempts from Lentz and all sorts of GNP where he got position: full guard, half guard, taking the back, etc, etc. You do know that it aint exactly a cake walk to finish a Nova Uniao guy on the ground cuz they pretty good with BJJ right? Lentz's performance was MMA grappling 101. |
| 1/20/13 2:56 PM | |
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Wasa-B
42
Member Since: 1/1/01 Posts: 42796 |
I like Nunes btw, but he trains with Aldo and it makes you appreciate a guy like Aldo that much more - Aldo is simply one of the best in the sport. But Nunes knows what has to be done to defend tds, stay out of the clinch and get back to his feet. He simply could not do that. That is on him. |
| 1/20/13 2:58 PM | |
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quick
22
Member Since: 1/1/01 Posts: 14369 |
You can appreciate what he is doing and still find it boring. Personally I'm more a fan of guys who let it all hang out win, lose, or draw. |
| 1/20/13 3:00 PM | |
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GriffinQ
120
Member Since: 10/17/09 Posts: 8332 |
Agreed completely I LIKE watching performances like that. They don't have super tense moments or crazy techniques, but one person dominating another and doing everything they can to break them... It's a big part of why I love combat sports 
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| 1/20/13 3:02 PM | |
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Wasa-B
42
Member Since: 1/1/01 Posts: 42798 |
quick - You can appreciate what he is doing and still find it boring. Personally I'm more a fan of guys who let it all hang out win, lose, or draw. I can appreciate that view as well which is why i used "stomach" and not so much "cant find Lentz exciting...." Exciting is in the eye of the beholder, but what Lentz did is fundamental MMA. Everyone like those who let it all hang but its unrealistic to expect every fighter to be like that. Im sure you an appreciate teams or athletes in other sports who arent completely like that (there isnt a sport which has 100% let it all hang out anyhow but in MMA, seems the majority of fans demand it). |
| 1/20/13 3:02 PM | |
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mrgoodarmbar
34
Member Since: 11/10/05 Posts: 3156 |
as long as they're not using it to stall... |
| 1/20/13 3:03 PM | |
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hammerhurler
23
Member Since: 10/19/12 Posts: 287 |
Agreed. I thought it Lentz/Nunes was a great fight. Standing KOs are great and all, but if all fights were one-shot KOs it would get pretty boring pretty quick, IMO. I love the stand up, but I love good grappling just as much. And still hate lay-and-pray. |
| 1/20/13 3:03 PM | |
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Wasa-B
42
Member Since: 1/1/01 Posts: 42799 |
mrgoodarmbar - as long as they're not using it to stall... Thats the thing though, most "fans" still do not understand, just because you have someone on the ground does not mean you should automatically finish them within a few minutes. People have no patience in watching the ground game. And Lentz was working all the way all day - all over Nunes in position and GNP. And again, do people really think dominating a Nova Uniao guy on the ground is a cake? |
| 1/20/13 3:34 PM | |
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orcus
Member Since: 8/1/03 Posts: 75667 |
"(there isnt a sport which has 100% let it all hang out anyhow but in MMA, seems the majority of fans demand it)." To be fair, the sport's roots are no time limit fights where you had to submit or KO your opponent, otherwise you didn't win. Even now, since the goal of the match is still to KO or submit your opponent, it's understandable to see a failure to do so as not a true win.
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| 1/20/13 3:41 PM | |
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Wasa-B
42
Member Since: 1/1/01 Posts: 42802 |
orcus - I prefer kos's and subs too, I think the comparison to no time limit is also unfair....to be fair and I don't think you have to finish someone in order to consider yourself the true victor...Cain didn't finish jds right? In judo, the goal is still ippon but its just not feasible to get it all the time and everyone in judo knows that. In BJJ, the goal is still a sub but even Marcelo can't do it all the time.... |
| 1/20/13 3:42 PM | |
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Wasa-B
42
Member Since: 1/1/01 Posts: 42803 |
Also, Nunez came out of r1 completely drained and demoralized....how was Lents not doing something right there? |
| 1/20/13 3:45 PM | |
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Wasa-B
42
Member Since: 1/1/01 Posts: 42804 |
Enjoyed Lentz making the Brazilian crowd boo too....too bad ur boy couldn't stop pretty much anything Lentz was doing |
| 1/20/13 3:49 PM | |
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Wasa-B
42
Member Since: 1/1/01 Posts: 42805 |
Othello - I'm not embarrassed to admit I'm a huge John Fitch fan ;-) I dont necessarily love watching Fitch fight but as what i consider a "true MMA fan," I will always be interested in watching top guys vs other top guys and seeing who can do what to the other. |
| 1/20/13 3:50 PM | |
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KZTT_FawkingxD
64
Member Since: 4/30/12 Posts: 1927 |
Wasa-B - I like Nunes btw, but he trains with Aldo and it makes you appreciate a guy like Aldo that much more - Aldo is simply one of the best in the sport. But Nunes knows what has to be done to defend tds, stay out of the clinch and get back to his feet. He simply could not do that. That is on him.No longer trains with Aldo. He moves away from nova uniao, due to the attention being focused on Aldo
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| 1/20/13 3:55 PM | |
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in_different
9
Member Since: 1/20/12 Posts: 1407 |
Othello - I'm not embarrassed to admit I'm a huge John Fitch fan ;-) Don't be. I'm a fan of wrestling. Seeing one guy impose his gameplan so perfectly is fascinating. We look at it through a different set of eyes than most fans. You just have to temper your expectations and appreciate what they are doing. There have been so many excellent moments in mma the past 2 year, I feel fans are desensitized a bit. |
| 1/20/13 3:57 PM | |
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Wasa-B
42
Member Since: 1/1/01 Posts: 42806 |
KZTT_FawkingxD -Wasa-B - I like Nunes btw, but he trains with Aldo and it makes you appreciate a guy like Aldo that much more - Aldo is simply one of the best in the sport. But Nunes knows what has to be done to defend tds, stay out of the clinch and get back to his feet. He simply could not do that. That is on him.No longer trains with Aldo. He moves away from nova uniao, due to the attention being focused on Aldo Thanks for that. Chael also mentioned that he is only a purple belt in BJJ and that i believe his background is kickboxing not bjj as i thought. Nunes is not bad at tdd though, i think like Chael said, he lacks some focus. |
| 1/20/13 3:58 PM | |
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Wasa-B
42
Member Since: 1/1/01 Posts: 42807 |
in_different -Othello - I'm not embarrassed to admit I'm a huge John Fitch fan ;-) Also interesting how the wrestler implements that against a dangerous striker or a top BJJ guy. make fights. Most people only like the flash. |
| 1/20/13 3:58 PM | |
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orcus
Member Since: 8/1/03 Posts: 75669 |
Wasa-B -orcus - Yes, but I think much of the time (not referring to this fight since I didn't see it), it's pretty apparent when a guy is really going for a finish and when he isn't. Even in your example of how you can't always "let it all hang out", one could say well, if you're trying to finish and you're not getting anywhere, don't you kind of HAVE to let it all hang out? In other words, how are you increasing your effort to get the finish if your more conservative approach does not appear to be getting you there? Can you really say that a guy who doesn't ramp up his aggression and redouble his finishing efforts is actually trying to finish? Some of this is devil's advocate, but I think it's mostly true as well. I don't blame guys for holding something back so that they don't leave an opening for an opponent or don't gas themselves out or whatever, but let's call a a spade a spade. Many guys would be happy to get a finish but aren't going to put themselves out there trying to get one, and are just as happy with the decision win (no matter how much they say they "want a knockout"). |
| 1/20/13 4:07 PM | |
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Wasa-B
42
Member Since: 1/1/01 Posts: 42810 |
orcus -Wasa-B -orcus - Lentz was consistently trying to improve position, and got all sorts of them, and was pounding as much as he could given the position imo. Now here is where the "all hang out" stuff, like, should you be expected to give up mount and just wail away to go for the finish even though its likely you might get 1 decent shot maybe but that the guy will cover up and hip escape and buck you off? That's letting it all hang out. Or just brawl and go for the kill and leave yourself open ala Wand/Leben? Thats def letting it all hang. "In other words, how are you increasing your effort to get the finish if your more conservative approach does not appear to be getting you there? Can you really say that a guy who doesn't ramp up his aggression and redouble his finishing efforts is actually trying to finish?" You know you can be TRYING to pass guard or TRYING to set up a sub but simply being thwarted at doing so. I think this is something most people miss. Like in every fight, GSP is trying to do that....but i do agree where he is being thwarted in the submission game, he could amp up his GNP to soften/open/damage his opponent more. Thing is, against Condit for example, he was giving GSP as good as he was getting (if not more) in reverse GNP and kept GSP busy with defending sweeps and stuff too...im sure you saw that....so often 2 guys are just in a battle where neither is able to get a distinct advantage or dominate the other, but though both are TRYING. |
| 1/20/13 4:11 PM | |
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Wasa-B
42
Member Since: 1/1/01 Posts: 42811 |
"Many guys would be happy to get a finish but aren't going to put themselves out there trying to get one, and are just as happy with the decision win (no matter how much they say they "want a knockout")." Yes, agree and i dont think there is anything wrong with that. If you have a distinct lead, you can still go for the finish should it present itself but it doesnt make sense to put yourself in danger and risk a distinct lead, a lead you made for yourself...it should be up to the other guy to let it all hang in that position since they have nothing to lose. Diego does that. Anderson is able to find the finish always but only because he is that good. Fedor always went for the finish esp later in his career but then again also to his detriment. All 3 of his losses were due to him being over aggressive and could have been avoided if he was more tactful imo (the way he lost to Werdum/Hendo esp). |
| 1/20/13 5:16 PM | |
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hammerhurler
23
Member Since: 10/19/12 Posts: 288 |
Othello -in_different -Othello - I'm not embarrassed to admit I'm a huge John Fitch fan ;-) Fitch is definitely good at what he does. Another wrestler I really like, though I wasn't a fan of at first, is Ben Askren. He didn't really seem to know what to do with his opponents in his earlier fights, but now he's fucking them up. They don't know which way to turn, it's bad no matter what. |
| 1/20/13 5:34 PM | |
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nowaydo
28
Member Since: 2/28/06 Posts: 4763 |
Agree with you 100%! When guys like Rampage complain about fighting wrestlers/grapplers, I think "why the hell don't you just become a boxer or kickboxer?" ...The answer is...he'd get his butt kicked! |
| 1/21/13 6:09 PM | |
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Bentleysuper8
149
Member Since: 4/9/05 Posts: 2040 |
Wasa-B -orcus - But the powers that be in judo are constantly changing the rules to thwart the point fighters and to encourage the finishers. Not saying all the rule changes are good (they certainly aren;t very welcome by most fighters) but if judo wants to remain an Olympic sport they feel they have to change the rules to keep it dynamic. In the UFC it's money driven. I wouldn't be very excited to lay down money to see Lentz out wrestle someone. |
| 1/21/13 6:49 PM | |
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FinestScotch
Member Since: 7/16/12 Posts: 1869 |
Didn't try nearly hard enough to finish. If there weren't guys like say Joe Lauzon aggressively finishing fight after fight with grappling (MMA grappling 101 imo, I might have started to take your OP seriously. Position before submissions is terribly boring, whether it requires skill or not. According to fightmetric, he had 8 passes and 0 sub attempts. He wasn't exactly landing bombs either. Safety blankets are boring as shit to watch. Try to finish the fuckin fight. http://hosteddb.fightmetric.com/fights/index/4211 |
| 1/21/13 7:09 PM | |
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Wasa-B
42
Member Since: 1/1/01 Posts: 42817 |
Bentleysuper8 -Wasa-B -orcus - There are already rounds, standups, bonuses for KO/sub/fight of the night. As far as where you put your money, that's up to you as a customer. But as far as expectations go for an MMA match, how can you expect grappling not to play a part ? That's the whole question. What is MMA without grappling? Boxing or kickboxing or karate or any other standup So if you were to lay money down on a boxing/K1 card, you can definately play to your expectation not to see anyone out wrestle the other. Its silly to not expect out wrestling someone to not play a part in any MMA event/match. Its MMA, not Ultimate Kickboxing. There's also Shootboxing (S-Cup) or Shan Shou (what Cung did) where its kickboxing plus clinch and tds but no ground. |
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