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SBGI >> Straight Jacket Posture
| 5/16/05 8:24 PM | |
grrynn
Edited: 16-May-05 Member Since: 04/22/2003 Posts: 27 |
Hello, I was reading on the UG and came accross a thread about side mount escapes. In the thread, Inderek wrote "I gained a lot from Matt Thornton?s ground tape from FJKD 2 - a comprehensive and systematical look on escapes from side and also turtle - although I would also look into some newer material and find out about straight jacket posture...after that my escapes started to skyrocket... www.straightblastgym.com " .... Anyway ... my questions are, is there a DVD that covers the "straight jacket posture"? If so ... please let me know. Also, if I purchase a "Bronze" level SBGi membership ... are techniques like this covered on the SBGi member forums? And finally, is there a SBGi affliate in Seattle, WA. (I looked on the website under where but did not find one) Thanx, |
| 5/16/05 10:41 PM | |
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Mike Sweeney
Edited: 16-May-05 Member Since: 01/01/2001 Posts: 1318 |
is there a DVD that covers the "straight jacket posture"? If so ... please let me know. Not sure about this one. if I purchase a "Bronze" level SBGi membership ... are techniques like this covered on the SBGi member forums? Yes and No. There are various pictorial threads which will be available in the Silver Member forums, when that area is brought online. I know for sure there is a detailed instructional on the Fundamental 5 from the Bottom, which includes the Straight-Jacket posture there. However, you will never find a more giving group of people assembled on a mma forum, so any questions you have would most certainly be answered in detail in the Bronze area. is there a SBGi affliate in Seattle, WA. (I looked on the website under where but did not find one) If they are not on the site (I looked there as well) I would have to say No as to the best of my knowledge, that list is current. |
| 5/16/05 11:57 PM | |
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grrynn
Edited: 16-May-05 Member Since: 04/22/2003 Posts: 28 |
Thanx Mike ... I appreciate the answers!! |
| 5/17/05 5:21 AM | |
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jonpall
Edited: 17-May-05 Member Since: 01/01/2001 Posts: 6913 |
My two favorites from the bottom of the side mount: - Straight jacket posture (with "pulsing" to get to my side). - Michael Jen's "pin prevention system" (with pulsing to get to my side). I liken this to "killing the arms (actually only the arm that's closer to your head) from the bottom"! |
| 5/17/05 9:05 AM | |
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Mike Sweeney
Edited: 17-May-05 Member Since: 01/01/2001 Posts: 1321 |
Michael Jen's "pin prevention system" Can you describe this Jonpall? |
| 5/18/05 4:32 AM | |
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Indrek R.
Edited: 18-May-05 Member Since: 07/04/2002 Posts: 458 |
I?ll describe it to you Mike.. :) I do not use it as much myself cause i mainly like to use the underhook, but one of my smaller guys I showed it to really gets to everyones nerves with it... Imagine that your opponent is on your right side. Your left arm usually might be as an underhook or under his throat. In the pin prevention your left forearm is under his left armpit (and the other arm might touch his elbow or be against the hip)... so it basically prevents him hooking behind your head ... or getting any decent pin.... of course you move around with it... he can only go to reverse scarf and only to the position where the elbow is under the armpit, not over the hand. It makes all the attacks on the hands quite hard. Hope you understood some. There are also a few good transitional escapes off of this posture. I. |
| 5/18/05 10:58 AM | |
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jonpall
Edited: 20-May-05 07:37 AM Member Since: 01/01/2001 Posts: 6919 |
Sure, Mike. You may be doing this already. It's a concept from Michael Jen that revolves around the idea to never allow your opponent to sink his weight fully on you in addition to never allowing him to get good pulling motions on you. Let's say that my opponent is side mounting me on my right side. My objective is to use my arms, both or just one, to kind of "kill" his left arm, usually by pushing under his left armpit with my elbow(s). The reason for this is because it's my opponent's LEFT arm that's the dangerous one. It's my opponent's LEFT arm that will cross face me or pull up on my right elbow, either of which will keep me flat on my back. So if I can render my opponent's left arm useless, I can escape more easily, right? So I put my left elbow (or actually the part of my forearm that's closest to my elbow) to push under my opponent's left armpit, and duck my head under the same armpit. My right elbow can either push on his left hip or help my left arm by also pushing on his left armpit or upper arm. (Sometimes if he's got a 90% cross face on me and I can't get my left elbow under his armpit, I will first insert my right elbow there and then my left.) From here I "pulse" to get onto my side and escape to my knees or guard. It works surprisingly well. Hope this helps. |
| 5/19/05 8:30 AM | |
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jonpall
Edited: 19-May-05 Member Since: 01/01/2001 Posts: 6933 |
Actually, Mino did something similar to this pin prevention system against Bob Sapp to escape his side mount - several times to be precise. He as looking to get under Bob's left armpit (Bob was on his right side), as opposed to fish for the underhook under Bob's right armpit. I think the best way is to flow between all 3 postures. |
| 5/19/05 8:32 AM | |
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Mike Sweeney
Edited: 19-May-05 Member Since: 01/01/2001 Posts: 1323 |
Interesting. |
| 5/21/05 4:20 AM | |
cdog1955
2 
Edited: 21-May-05 Member Since: 01/01/2001 Posts: 105 |
What is pulsing? |
| 5/21/05 9:12 AM | |
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Mike Sweeney
Edited: 21-May-05 Member Since: 01/01/2001 Posts: 1325 |
cdog1955: Imagine having a epileptic seizure. A series of short, explosive bridges. |
| 5/22/05 2:18 PM | |
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jonpall
Edited: 22-May-05 Member Since: 01/01/2001 Posts: 6942 |
Another good thing about the pin prevention system is that it's also his LEFT arm (in the example above) that's the dangerous arm for STRIKING. Therefore, it should work somewhat well for MMA. Like I said, Mino did it to Bob Sapp while under fire. Quite heavy fire, actually :) Yet another good thing about the pin prevention system is that you are more active with it than with the straight jacket posture. With the straight jacket posture, your arms are much more still and you kind of wait for your opponent to land on your forearms, because you're SO wary of your arms not getting "killed" out of posture. That leaves your opponent a bit free to do what he wants to do with his arms, even though it's hard for him to get around his arms. This teaches us to not to think about posture as something too static. You need to be able to flow between postures because, especially against bigger guys, it's so hard to force the positions YOU want. Just make sure you are always trying to get his damn weight off you. Here's a bad thing about the pin prevention system, by the way: You can sometimes get caught with your upper arms pinned against your chest ("barb wire position"), if you're not careful when your opponent transitions to north-south. |
| 5/22/05 6:23 PM | |
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Mike Sweeney
Edited: 22-May-05 Member Since: 01/01/2001 Posts: 1329 |
Jonpall: I disagree about the "waiting for your opponent to land on you" thing. You should not be waiting for anything. You should be actively moving to escape long before any pin is finalized. Question on this pin prevention thing. It seems to me from visualizing the position (I have yet to experiment myself) that this would place you more flat on your back, rather than in H&H. Am I correct in this? |
| 5/22/05 11:12 PM | |
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mandalalisten
Edited: 22-May-05 Member Since: 01/27/2003 Posts: 364 |
remember round shoulders and feet close to the butt to lift the hips so your as tipsy as possible. Your trying to make a frame with your core... |
| 5/23/05 12:03 AM | |
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Indrek R.
Edited: 23-May-05 Member Since: 07/04/2002 Posts: 463 |
It will put you a bit more flat on your back... but you do not necessarily have to stay in there for a very long time... I. |
| 5/23/05 11:01 PM | |
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reptile
Edited: 25-May-05 12:19 AM Member Since: 01/01/2001 Posts: 504 |
Can someone get some pics up or post a link? I'm having a little difficulty visualising this pin prevention thing :-) |
| 5/27/05 7:49 AM | |
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jonpall
Edited: 27-May-05 Member Since: 01/01/2001 Posts: 6947 |
Maybe SLIGHTLY more flat on your back, but when I think about it, I'm not even sure there is any difference. You could also say that the point of the pin prevention system, at least the part of it that I personally use, is to simply use it to duck under his left arm. From there, you abandon the arm position as you get more onto your side and shrimp and/or pulse. Once you get completely onto your side, you shouldn't really push on his armpit anymore, but rather on his hips or thighs with straight arms, your elbows or just extract your arms to protect them (if you feel they are in some sort of danger - although this danger diminishes considerably once you get onto your side). |
| 5/28/05 2:01 PM | |
chickenfeet
2
Edited: 28-May-05 Member Since: 10/03/2004 Posts: 86 |
for the pin prevention system-- if your opponent has side control on you on your right side and your using your left arm to push in his left armpit, doesn't this expose you to him walking around your head and arm triangling you? seems like you're giving him the arm triangle setup by crossing your left across across your own body? am i visualizing this correctly? also-- what videos does Jen show this stuff on? thankss-- |
| 5/28/05 2:41 PM | |
Matt Thornton
1
Edited: 28-May-05 Member Since: 01/01/2001 Posts: 2408 |
I teach that method of pin prevention in the escapes from bottom tape on FJKD series #2. Using the top arm so as to stay on one hip, denying the crossface, preventing the top person from locking in the position, and setting up reversals off of it. Once that fails and they drop into top position, the straightjacket, or boxing hand position takes over. |
| 5/30/05 5:09 AM | |
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Indrek R.
Edited: 30-May-05 Member Since: 07/04/2002 Posts: 469 |
IT is shown on UPE 7 - Pin prevention and transitional escapes.... you imagine it correctly, but you cannot be arm triangled as long as you hold your elbow in a correct place... but i like the underhook way more - just escape straight off the pass is what works best for me (or turtle)... I. |
| 7/21/05 7:03 PM | |
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jw234
Edited: 21-Jul-05 Member Since: 04/11/2005 Posts: 34 |
Interesting stuff. Thanks. I think I understand the theory behind the Pin Prevention System... but what is the propper usage of a Stright Jacket arm position? Thanks, again. |
| 7/26/05 2:01 AM | |
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JRockwell
47
Edited: 26-Jul-05 Member Since: 03/13/2002 Posts: 1886 |
Off the top of my head, my understanding of the benefits of using the straightjacket posture: 1. Keeps your arms in between you and your opponent at all times, relieving some of the pressure of the pin. 2. Keeps your arms reletively safe from submissions. 3. Emphasizes use of the hips and total body movement to escape; eliminates upper body pushing almost completely. Hope that helps, Jeff |
| 8/19/05 9:26 AM | |
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jonpall
Edited: 19-Aug-05 Member Since: 01/01/2001 Posts: 7258 |
I use both the straight jacket posture and the pin prevention system. I just thought of the following thing: I've been rolling with a few top class judo competitors that are well known for their ground work (newaza) and they like to take a side mount on people from which the crossfacing arm grabs a handful of gi from under the armpit. I suddenly got the feeling that the pin prevention system would work better against this than the straight jacket posture, because in the pin prevention system you kind of ruin or "kill" his crossfacing arm. If you were to use the straight jacket posture in this case, he should still be able to feed and grab your lapel under your armpi and then put his shoulder under your chin, right? But I think I remember Matt Thornton say a while ago that the use of "frames" in escapes (like f.ex. the pin prevention system) can only really be done effectively when your opponent's hips haven't "landed" when securing his pin. So the pin prevention system might be more appropriate as a preventative method than the straight jacket posture, I dunno. After he lands his hips gets more of a chest to chest contact, the straight jacket might be more useful. |
| 8/20/05 2:47 PM | |
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mandalalisten
Edited: 20-Aug-05 Member Since: 01/27/2003 Posts: 417 |
"frames" in escapes (like f.ex. the pin prevention system) can only really be done effectively when your opponent's hips haven't "landed" when securing his pin." Trying to make frames without the core moving in a complimentary direction is putting the cart before the horse. The straight jacket posture is a safety position to look for defensive openings that may appear while the larger "frame" of your hips are in full effect. This is why the pulse works so good to get out once a small edge is found. It is not that the pulse works good to create the opening, but once an opening is found, the pulse can shorten to a vibration to literally drill your way thru non-integrated structure. As the openings get bigger on your way out, larger "frames" can be built, but again, these frames are useless unless integrated into the core. "After he lands his hips gets more of a chest to chest contact, the straight jacket might be more useful." Armand and I have been experimenting building "mini-frames" from the straight jacket posture. Even down to the point where the top guys hip edge is shrunk down to the "ice cream scoop" of the leading hip edge. It's like if you can keep one pinky finger between his elbow and the mat you can "pin" him, but as soon as that negative space dissapears he is slipping out horizontally using whole body movement. He's some kinda french wood gnome. Dave Copeland |
| 8/22/05 7:36 AM | |
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jonpall
Edited: 22-Aug-05 Member Since: 01/01/2001 Posts: 7263 |
Thanks, Dave. And thanks for our last encounter in march in Portland. It was a blast rolling with you and the Beaverton guys! Cheers, jonpall. |
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