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Jon Jones to Protest Loss


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From: knocka 1 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile
Posted: 12/9/09 1:43 PM
Member Since: 11/23/09
Posts: 9
 
bowlingotter - I don't see what the point is... the DQ loss won't be overturned, and even if it is, why? To preserve an undefeated record? The brass all saw that Jones dominated Hamill regardless of the official fight outcome so he'd still get a top opponent in his next matchup.


we also heard Matt saying that he couldn't continue due to his shoulder in the interview afterwards. That's what I am taking into consideration in support of Jones protesting the decision.

Ultimately, it's up to the commission to decide. There's nothing wrong with taking it to the commission.

From: bhamill 2 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile
Posted: 12/9/09 1:44 PM
Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 14801
 
Here's a simple question: Why did the ref stop the action?

Illegal blows.

There were two legitimate reasons why Hamill should not continue: shoulder and severe cut to bridge of the nose.

The fact of the matter is that in the position they were in, Hamill WAS fighting with the fucked shoulder, and he COULD have kept doing so, no one even knew till he said something. He was still defending with both arms. He could NOT however continue with two pools of blood over his eyes. Those pools were caused by illegal elbows.

IF Jones did not BOTH throw illegal blows AND cause a fight stopping injury with them, the fight would have been over soon. But he DID cause a fight stopping injury with illegal blows. So he loses. He should just take responsibility and not make the same mistake again.

From: goku Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile
Posted: 12/9/09 2:13 PM
Member Since: 8/6/08
Posts: 6721
 
 "
Here's a simple question: Why did the ref stop the action?

Illegal blows."

why he stopped the action is IRRELEVANT..read the rule..whats relevant is what rendered matt unable to continue- which was the shoulder

"There were two legitimate reasons why Hamill should not continue: shoulder and severe cut to bridge of the nose. "

Wrong again. the shoulder was it. wathc matt's post fight interview. his nose was cut, but not nearly as bad as other fights in the ufc that have continued.

"The fact of the matter is that in the position they were in, Hamill WAS fighting with the fucked shoulder, and he COULD have kept doing so, no one even knew till he said something. He was still defending with both arms. He could NOT however continue with two pools of blood over his eyes. Those pools were caused by illegal elbows."

wrong again. matt himself said he couldnt defend because of his shoulder. the reason he couldnt get up? not the blood, but rather the shoulder. and when have you ever in your life see a ref stop a fight due to cuts? the ref always brings in the doc to make the determination. and again, check out post fight, matt was fine. there have been many many more bloody matches in the ufc that were not stopped.

"IF Jones did not BOTH throw illegal blows AND cause a fight stopping injury with them, the fight would have been over soon. But he DID cause a fight stopping injury with illegal blows. So he loses. He should just take responsibility and not make the same mistake again."

u need to stop rationalizing and spinning things. the rule is clear.


From: bhamill 2 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile
Posted: 12/9/09 2:27 PM
Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 14802
 
I disagree, with you, he could NOT continue with that nose, if he could have THEN the fight WOULD have been stopped for the shoulder. But its moot, he was deemed unable to continue REGARDLESS of the shoulder.

I'm rationalizing and spinning NOTHING. The people trying to change the record are the ones doing that. He obviously WAS defending despite the shoulder till action was halted for illegal blows that caused another injury. YOU are trying to rationalize by saying he couldn't continue anyway. DOESN'T matter since the fight was already stopped for illegal activity causing injury while he WAS defending with both arms. Go sell it where ever you want, nobody is buying.

From: bhamill 2 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile
Posted: 12/9/09 2:35 PM
Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 14804
 
For the record I was yelling at the TV for Jones to end it and until he started the illegal elbows, then it was a "slow motion" "Nnnnnnoooooooooooooo!!!" He fucked up, it happens, take the L and move on, it doesn't diminish his performance in the eyes of everyone who saw the fight.

From: shb 3 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile
Posted: 12/9/09 2:37 PM
Member Since: 1/25/07
Posts: 340
 
Crazy Zimmerman - 
shb - 
Crazy Zimmerman -  Ryan Ciotoli: He doesn’t want to embarrass anyone but he feels that the fair ruling would be a no contest.
so jones is on board with this after all. who could have guessed?

 Have you ever been in the heat of battle and said something and then afterwards, when the adrenaline wears off and you have time to reflect and even watch videos of the fight, changed your mind?

It sounds like you're looking for a reason to trash the guy.  But this is the Net, you don't need a reason. 
you're right, i don't need a reason. he cheated. also, lol at the idea of me being the biased one. come on garv

From: caliphornia Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile
Posted: 12/9/09 2:41 PM
Edited: 12/09/09 2:41 PM
Member Since: 7/9/07
Posts: 6219
 
what sour grapes

when bones jones snitched out all those potheads with glee... did they protest it? NO. they took their punishment and went to jail like men.

jon bones needs a taste of his own medicine and needs to take account for his consequences and transgressions.

From: goku Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile
Posted: 12/9/09 2:43 PM
Member Since: 8/6/08
Posts: 6722
 
 "I disagree, with you, he could NOT continue with that nose,"

uhhh..yeah he could...someone post a gif of matt's post fight interview..he was fine

check out NSAC's medical suspension report:

Matt Hamill (DQ victory over Jon Jones): Suspended until June 4 due to possible left-shoulder injury, though he can be cleared early by an orthopedic doctor; even if cleared, suspended until Feb. 5 with no contact until Jan. 20

WHERE IS THE REFERNCE TO THE NOSE FOOL?

From: bhamill 2 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile
Posted: 12/9/09 2:57 PM
Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 14806
 
What has that got to do with it? It might not effect him long term like a break or a separation, but that doesn't mean it didn't end the fight.

And what is with the "FOOL"? You that emotionally invested in this? Guess that explains some things about your argument.

Personally I've given you my opinion, you disagree? I'm cool with that. The decision is going to be what it is.

From: likatiga 149 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile
Posted: 12/9/09 3:31 PM
Member Since: 9/15/07
Posts: 589
 
goku -  "I disagree, with you, he could NOT continue with that nose,"

uhhh..yeah he could...someone post a gif of matt's post fight interview..he was fine

check out NSAC's medical suspension report:

Matt Hamill (DQ victory over Jon Jones): Suspended until June 4 due to possible left-shoulder injury, though he can be cleared early by an orthopedic doctor; even if cleared, suspended until Feb. 5 with no contact until Jan. 20

WHERE IS THE REFERNCE TO THE NOSE FOOL?


You're being blinded by your emotions.

The possible shoulder injury would keep him out until June 4. BUT if he is cleared before that, the Jan 20 / Feb 5 suspension is for different reasons. Look at McSweeny's suspension for example:

"James McSweeney (KO win over Darrill Schoonover): Suspended until June 4 due to a possible right third metacarpal (hand) injury. Can be cleared to return sooner by an orthopedic doctor"

There's no mention of alternate suspension date because he was not knocked silly.



Goku, you cannot reasonably believe (nor prove) that the elbows didn't contribute even a little bit to Hammil not being able to continue. If they were even 1% of the reason he could not continue, then the ruling is good (according to the rule you keep quoting).

From: DaddyRich 91 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile
Posted: 12/9/09 3:50 PM
Member Since: 8/22/02
Posts: 608
 
Altofsky - I just rewatched the ending. You can't argue that Mazz didn't fuck up at the end of that fight. He asked a deaf man "You done? You done?" and waved the fight off. Even if he assumed that Matt was able to read lips, the man had blood in his eyes.
 


There's no getting around this point. Mazz STOPPED THE FIGHT ACTION because of the illegal elbows. He ENDED THE FIGHT after Matt didn't respond to his questions.

From: aikmanr Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile
Posted: 12/9/09 3:55 PM
Member Since: 8/19/06
Posts: 981
 
DaddyRich -
There's no getting around this point. Mazz STOPPED THE FIGHT ACTION because of the illegal elbows. He ENDED THE FIGHT after Matt didn't respond to his questions.


NEWSFLASH: Matt is fucking deaf and had pools of blood over his eyes. Ofcourse he couldn't respond! The reason he quit was due to his shoulder.

From: droplogic Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile
Posted: 12/9/09 4:08 PM
Member Since: 3/22/07
Posts: 2065
 
There are a lot of really stupid people on this thread, goku is not one of them.

From: Boldar Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile
Posted: 12/9/09 4:10 PM
Member Since: 9/22/06
Posts: 3057
 
Crazy Zimmerman -  I think a key point that a lot of people might be missing is the fact that the illegal blows are NOT what stopped the fight.  Hamill had a cut on the bridge of his nose.  Big deal.  It was the shoulder injury that would have prevented him from continuing.

Mazzagatti never learned that because he failed to communicate with the fighter.  Hamill thought the fight had been stopped and he lost.   The right move would be to break the fighters and evaluate Hamill in the corner.

A DQ is for when an illegal blow is the cause of the end of the fight.

The cut from the illegal blow is NOT what ended the fight.
Exactly, it's what myself and others have been saying for some time.

The fight should be a NC at this point although had Mazz done it right it probably would have been a TKO for JJ.

From: Boldar Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile
Posted: 12/9/09 4:16 PM
Member Since: 9/22/06
Posts: 3058
 
likatiga - You're being blinded by your emotions.

The possible shoulder injury would keep him out until June 4. BUT if he is cleared before that, the Jan 20 / Feb 5 suspension is for different reasons. Look at McSweeny's suspension for example:

"James McSweeney (KO win over Darrill Schoonover): Suspended until June 4 due to a possible right third metacarpal (hand) injury. Can be cleared to return sooner by an orthopedic doctor"

There's no mention of alternate suspension date because he was not knocked silly.



Goku, you cannot reasonably believe (nor prove) that the elbows didn't contribute even a little bit to Hammil not being able to continue. If they were even 1% of the reason he could not continue, then the ruling is good (according to the rule you keep quoting).
The point is that we do NOT KNOW why Matt couldn't continue for sure because Mazz didn't even ask him.  Period.  There was no communication between Matt & Mazz.  That was the mistake.  That is why it needs to be a NC.

Hamill's comments afterwards about the shoulder reinforces the fact that it was most likely not the elbows, but the fact remains that Mazz didn't communication yet stopped the fight.  The only way he can do that in those circumstances is to award the TKO to JJ.  He didn't, it went the opposite direction, thus there is problem.

Bottom line: The fight now should be ruled a NC although if Mazz had not made a mistake he would have most likely got the TKO.  Since we have no way of knowing for sure what Matt's response to Mazz would have been we can't be assured of the TKO, but we can be 100% possitive of the NC.

From: DaddyRich 91 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile
Posted: 12/9/09 4:18 PM
Member Since: 8/22/02
Posts: 609
 
aikmanr - 
DaddyRich -
There's no getting around this point. Mazz STOPPED THE FIGHT ACTION because of the illegal elbows. He ENDED THE FIGHT after Matt didn't respond to his questions.


NEWSFLASH: Matt is fucking deaf and had pools of blood over his eyes. Ofcourse he couldn't respond! The reason he quit was due to his shoulder.


that's my point. and why the fight should be a NC not a DQ.

From: Crazy Zimmerman 398 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile
Posted: 12/9/09 5:45 PM
Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 52973
 
DaddyRich - 
aikmanr - 
DaddyRich -
There's no getting around this point. Mazz STOPPED THE FIGHT ACTION because of the illegal elbows. He ENDED THE FIGHT after Matt didn't respond to his questions.


NEWSFLASH: Matt is fucking deaf and had pools of blood over his eyes. Ofcourse he couldn't respond! The reason he quit was due to his shoulder.


that's my point. and why the fight should be a NC not a DQ.
Correct.  Mazz erred by not evaluating Hamill properly.  A lot of UFC fights are bloody.  That doesn't cause the end of the fight.
 

From: Lechernich Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile
Posted: 12/9/09 6:24 PM
Member Since: 10/18/09
Posts: 313
 
I thought it should've been ruled a NC but I think a protest is in bad taste. Doesn't matter where the L went, we know who won the fight.

From: goku Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile
Posted: 12/9/09 6:52 PM
Member Since: 8/6/08
Posts: 6729
 
 it matters...do you know how many times goldie screams "UNDEFEATED FIGHTER" on the broardcast if you are undefeated?

From: Zeke Dynasty 31 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile
Posted: 12/9/09 6:57 PM
Member Since: 6/22/09
Posts: 126
 
goku -  it matters...do you know how many times goldie screams "UNDEFEATED FIGHTER" on the broardcast if you are undefeated?


he doesn't deserve that honor fighting dirty. he gave himself that L

From: WidespreadPanic Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile
Posted: 12/9/09 7:02 PM
Member Since: 12/29/06
Posts: 3149
 
 Guys, good thread, but bear in mind...

It's not what ACTUALLY kept Hammill from continuing - it was the assessment of his condition by the referees and the judges and I PRESUME, the ring doctor.

NOW, it may be that the ring doctor should have gone in there and examined Matt when they first started to overrule the ring referee (point deduction). BUT, you have to take it up with the judges and the doctor. Ask HIM why he didn't go in and examine Matt.

Matt is not a doctor. Maybe he THOUGHT he couldn't continue with his shoulder being dislocated (not -broken-). Maybe his corner could have popped it back in?

So let's think about what actually happened. There's no basis for changing the ruling. The outcome was based on the interpretation of the situation and the replay and that hasn't changed.

$0.02


From: Altofsky 912 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile
Posted: 12/9/09 7:48 PM
Edited: 12/09/09 7:50 PM
Member Since: 12/17/06
Posts: 27901
 
" But its moot, he was deemed unable to continue REGARDLESS of the shoulder."

He was deemed unable to continue because he didn't respond to a verbal query by a man that completely forgot that deaf people can't hear questions.
 

So not only did Mazz prove that he's a nitwit, he also denied Hammil the opportunity to speak(or sign) for himself and in the process caused Jones a DQ loss in what should have been a TKO since Hammil was complaining about his shoulder and not his nose. 

From: Lite 21 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile
Posted: 12/9/09 8:31 PM
Member Since: 12/12/02
Posts: 3203
 
Jones landed illegal blows that were 100% intentional. Were they accidental? No. Were they ill-advised? Yes. If Jones had had a moment to reflect, possibly consult the rulebook, would have have thrown those elbows? Probably not. But that doesn't make them unintentional. And lol @ parsing them, 12 to 7 or 12 to 8 and not 12 to 6.

I get the whole shoulder, communication,etc. angle, but it's just an angle. Nothing will come of it and it only makes Jones's camp look bad, since again, Jones threw illegal strikes.

The bottom line is, this is mma, not boxing, and a fighter's record is not regarded with the same obsessive attention a fighter's record in boxing is. In mma, it's who you beat last and how much you impressed the UFC honchos.

My 2cents.

From: Wally Saves 172 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile
Posted: 12/9/09 8:37 PM
Member Since: 4/6/09
Posts: 261
 
Source?

From: bhamill 2 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile
Posted: 12/10/09 10:41 AM
Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 14807
 
Referee made the assessment that Hamill was done. Show me a rule that says the Ref cannot stop the fight.

Some of you are saying he stopped the fight because Hamill didn't respond. Where has Mazz said that? Personally it looked to me like he stopped it because Hamill had two pools of blood over his eyes from a wicked cut caused by illegal elbows.

There was plenty of time between when the fight was stopped and when the decision was announced for Mazz to realize Hamill didn't know he was being questioned and failed to respond because of it.

If you can PROVE that the Ref stopped the fight due to non responsiveness alone (and not at ALL due to damage from illegal blows), you have a case for a NC. Since you CAN'T prove this, and its merely your opinion, the L for Jones should stand.

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