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Wonder Woman #7 - end of feminism in the DCnU?


From: paw 1414 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile
Posted: 3/28/12 11:48 AM
Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 26729
 
I haven't been reading WW in DC's reboot.  I dropped the title waaaaaay back when Simone left.  I did give the first issue a shot, didn't care for it and left it at that.

Kelly Thompson has an interesting article at
http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2012/03/26/she-has-no-head-is-the-destruction-of-the-amazons-the-destruction-of-feminism-in-dc-comics/ pondering if recent events in WW #7 .... well, in her words:


"It’s hard to ignore that this is a society that increasingly hates and distrusts women, especially as they gain any ground or power for themselves. And so it’s doubly hard to see that reflected back in our fiction right now. To see powerful women – which The Amazons have unequivocally been – as THE example of a society of powerful women in DC Comics – stripped of everything that might be good and honorable so that we may see the broadest most hateful stereotypes of them presented. The erroneous and damaging stereotype reinforced yet again that women with power will become absolute monsters. I would never make an argument that a matriarchal society would be a utopia. I would argue that any society that has inequality can by its very nature NOT be a utopia. But I see the Amazons, time and time again turned (primarily by men I’m sorry to say) into horror stories. Wildly exaggerated speculation of man-hating, man-killing, war-like unreasonable monsters. The question in fiction seems to lately be – how could powerful women be anything but monsters?  For me, it’s a bridge too far."


Also check out the comments to the article, which include comments from DC/Vertigo writer, Brian Wood

From: BigWilliam 274 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile
Posted: 3/28/12 11:57 AM
Member Since: 3/7/05
Posts: 17647
 
Typical overreaction. So is Luthor the representative of all bald men in the world? Are we to think that everyone folically challenged is evil? OH NO!

From: paw 1414 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile
Posted: 3/28/12 12:21 PM
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BigWilliam - Typical overreaction. So is Luthor the representative of all bald men in the world? Are we to think that everyone folically challenged is evil? OH NO!

Did you read her article? 

From: BigWilliam 274 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile
Posted: 3/28/12 12:34 PM
Member Since: 3/7/05
Posts: 17648
 
Cannot link there from work. I read the synopsis you posted.

From: jbapk Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile
Posted: 3/28/12 2:10 PM
Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 10475
 
Bigwilliam is correct, that was actually a pretty obscenely bad article.

The author admits that everything she claims "destroys" the Amazons is based on the actual Greek myths. She then ponderously goes on to claim none of that matters and the writers are harming feminism by bringing it up in their writing and the amazons should only be portrayed in a manner that fits her own personal, projected views of how Amazon society should be portrayed. As if her personal views on artistic interpretation are final and others should conform to her expectations or else be slandered and shunned.

It actually really reflects pretty badly on this chick's own moral system that she sees an ultra militarized, isolationist, gender segregated culture as some type of feminist ideal. Those are traits that are associated far more with patriarchal societies that oppress women, the idea that such a society could exist and yet conform to modern progressive values is at best naive at worst actively harmful. Could you imagine portraying a male version of the Amazons as a "heroic" ideal?

From: paw 1414 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile
Posted: 3/28/12 2:23 PM
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jbapk - Bigwilliam is correct, that was actually a pretty obscenely bad article.

The author admits that everything she claims "destroys" the Amazons is based on the actual Greek myths.

I'm not sure that's a fair statement.  Thompson writes:

"Much of what Azzarello is choosing to use has basis in Greek Myth, however A) the myths vary greatly; B) to take on ALL of the absolute worst qualities of a group of people at once while showing none of the other attributes that might offset some of those abhorrent qualities presents a drastically unbalanced portrait of an entire people which feeds into the absolute worst “Femi-nazi” stereotyping; and C) Regardless of the roots of Greek myths, The Amazons of Wonder Woman were certainly never intended to be presented this way. The Amazons of DC Comics, though warriors, were never intended to be monsters."
 

From: BigWilliam 274 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile
Posted: 3/28/12 2:49 PM
Member Since: 3/7/05
Posts: 17649
 
So she found a dark secret, and will most likely try to fix it, proving that she is a good person. The death of feminism is a COMPLETE over reaction. They gave the Amazons a touch of darkness a touch of texture.

From: jbapk Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile
Posted: 3/28/12 2:51 PM
Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 10476
 
paw - 
jbapk - Bigwilliam is correct, that was actually a pretty obscenely bad article.

The author admits that everything she claims "destroys" the Amazons is based on the actual Greek myths.

I'm not sure that's a fair statement.  Thompson writes:

"Much of what Azzarello is choosing to use has basis in Greek Myth, however A) the myths vary greatly; B) to take on ALL of the absolute worst qualities of a group of people at once while showing none of the other attributes that might offset some of those abhorrent qualities presents a drastically unbalanced portrait of an entire people which feeds into the absolute worst "Femi-nazi" stereotyping; and C) Regardless of the roots of Greek myths, The Amazons of Wonder Woman were certainly never intended to be presented this way. The Amazons of DC Comics, though warriors, were never intended to be monsters."
 


What you just quoted is garbage and a perfect example of how the author is completely unwilling to actually grapple with the topics she's writing about. The actual myths:

"In some versions of the myth, no men were permitted to have sexual encounters or reside in Amazon country; but once a year, in order to prevent their race from dying out, they visited the Gargareans, a neighbouring tribe. The male children who were the result of these visits were either killed, sent back to their fathers or exposed in the wilderness to fend for themselves; the females were kept and brought up by their mothers, and trained in agricultural pursuits, hunting, and the art of war. In other versions when the Amazons went to war they would not kill all the men. Some they would take as slaves, and once or twice a year they would have sex with their slaves"

So the "varying" myths about the Amazons are that they were either A: mass murderers or B: slave owning rapists. Why couldn't DC bring up some good traits to balance that out? I hear the trains on Paradise Island always run on time.

Basically she calls the Amazons "the female empowerment" myth yet only wants a revisionist myth that exorcises the question of how a militarized, bigoted society would function in the first place.

Some one in the comments section put it best:

-island full of xenophobic sexist bigots turns out not to be paradise
-feminists complain

From: paw 1414 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile
Posted: 3/28/12 3:11 PM
Edited: 03/28/12 3:17 PM
Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 26737
 
jbapk -

What you just quoted is garbage and a perfect example of how the author is completely unwilling to actually grapple with the topics she's writing about. 

I hope you aren't suggesting my quote was inaccurate. 

I think  you're suggesting Thompson's point is in error, and that I have only one comment:  Azz is under no obligation to canonize the DCnU's Amazons as either mass murderers or slave owning rapists, right?  Even if Azz wanted to canonize myths, he could have chosen the myth you cited above "they visited the Gargareans, a neighbouring tribe. The male children who were the result of these visits were ... sent back to their fathers". 

Which, as I understand it, is the point Thompson is making.

Have I misunderstood?
 

From: BigWilliam 274 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile
Posted: 3/28/12 3:13 PM
Member Since: 3/7/05
Posts: 17652
 
And that would be incredibly BORING. Giving the story a conflict is how you make it interesting. It gives WW something to rise above, something to fight for.

From: jbapk Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile
Posted: 3/28/12 3:54 PM
Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 10477
 
"I hope you aren't suggesting my quote was inaccurate."

I am not

"Azz is under no obligation to canonize the DCnU's Amazons"

That is my point, it is not the point this woman is making. She is limiting the stories DC can use with the characters and slandering people with non-artistic critiques if they don't conform to her views.

She doesn't have the like the story on its merits (I'm not a fan of this run) the gross thing is that she is bringing up a real world topic like feminism yet completely ignoring how her "ideal" is a bigoted, segregated society (even paws edited version is still that) and yet lecturing down to the rest of us. I find her soap boxing about feminism while purposely ignoring the segregation issues to be dishonest to the extreme. The idea that you can't point out a segregated, militarized society might have social customs we disagree with without "destroying feminism" is ridiculous censorship.

It's like someone claiming that pointing out Thomas Jefferson was a slave owner is an attack on American values, it's a mindless criticism.

From: BIGWHITESEXY 1099 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile
Posted: 3/28/12 4:03 PM
Member Since: 12/20/05
Posts: 33758
 
 LOFL...............JESUS CHRIST THAT BROAD NEEDS TO GET LAID.  


WHO THE FUCK SPENDS THEIR TIME THINKING ABOUT SUCH RUBBISH..............JESUS. 

From: CharlesLewis 783 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile
Posted: 3/28/12 4:11 PM
Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 17441
 
 Bottom line: the new DC sucks.

From: BIGWHITESEXY 1099 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile
Posted: 3/28/12 4:38 PM
Member Since: 12/20/05
Posts: 33760
 
 YEAH AQUAMAN AND ANIMAL MAN ARE THE ONLY TWO REALLY GOOD THINGS TO COME OUT OF THE NEW 52. 

I HATE WHAT THE DID WITH SUPERMAN THOUGH.  REALLY REALLY DEPOWERED HIM.  

From: Leigh 809 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile
Posted: 3/29/12 7:44 AM
Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 26202
 
1) I dunno if its power that makes them monsters (Margaret Thatcher was a successful powerful woman but people here HATED her). More like a large group of women with no men acting like cunts and failing - and this IS accurate.

2) Feminism may be the worst thing to happen to women and the best thing to happen to men.

From: Hemlock 153 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile
Posted: 3/29/12 10:02 AM
Member Since: 2/16/05
Posts: 11518
 
That was the best DC comic I have read in a long time.

From: BigWilliam 274 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile
Posted: 3/29/12 10:31 AM
Member Since: 3/7/05
Posts: 17660
 
Having had time to read the article I have come to the conclusion, she is entirely full of shit. These are the same people that complain WW is anti feminist because she wears a skimpy outfit. It the great thing about the amazons is that they are equal to men, then they can be equally evil, naive and misguided to.

From: paw 1414 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile
Posted: 3/29/12 11:49 AM
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Posts: 26747
 
Hemlock - That was the best DC comic I have read in a long time.

 Not sure if serious......

From: Hemlock 153 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile
Posted: 3/29/12 2:39 PM
Member Since: 2/16/05
Posts: 11520
 
I thought it was a great comic. Succinct and well told.

OK, maybe not the "best in a long time", but DC's regular crap heap could do with more of whatever intangible this book brought to the table.

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