Little Nog: They worship too much the takedowns

by Guilherme Cruz | source:

Tatame: What did you think of the result of your fight against Ryan Bader? Do you think he deserved to win or you think it could have gone both ways?

Rogerio Nogueira: Yeah, I’d have won. The way I see, I won the second and third rounds, and he won the first. When it comes to scoring, who did more damage on the opponent, I think it was me.

Tatame: Analyzing this fight with Bader and your last one, against Jason Brilz, what do you think you are lacking in order to have those great presentations again, just like you did on Pride and on your debut on UFC, when you faced Luis Cane?

RN: Actually, UFC is different than Pride. They worship a lot the takedowns, but the guys don’t do much on the floor and don’t even try to submit of knock us out. What happened was that he kept trying to take me down and I wanted to keep the fight standing up, to get the knockout. I have to improve to fight like I used to fight on Pride, that is something everyone can tell, I have to improve my takedown game, and keep me standing up or, in case I go to the floor, I have to try to fall on top of the guys to pass their guard and try to submit them. When they’re on top you…

There’re lots of people that say: “Nogueira didn’t do the ground game he should have done, he didn’t use his Jiu-Jitsu…”, but if the guy falls on top of you and decide not to punch you, there’s no way you can submit him. On the first round I felt with my head on the grid, so I couldn’t do anything.  Only who gets MMA knows that, when you have your head on the fence, you can’t move your hip. What was I supposed to do there? In fact my performance on the ground wasn’t that surprising, but on the positions on which I felt it was hard because he was half out, or I had my head on the grid. What I could do from there was to stand up and that was what I did. On the very end he held my leg and I couldn’t stand up. There were like forty something seconds on the guard, he didn’t punch me, he didn’t do anything, so it’s difficult… You can’t say that if the guy goes to the floor, he’ll try to submit you. What I have to work on is work on my takedown defenses, which I think I improved a lot since my last fight, but I still have a lot to do. I have to keep me standing up, try to knockout, or try to fall on top of them, pass the guard and submit.

Tatame: They said that the winner of this fight would face Jon Jones. What do you think of this duel?

RN: Well, I don’t know. I really don’t know. Whoever is better on Wrestling will win. The better one on this fight will win.

Tatame: Do you think it’s becoming a new trend for the future of UFC, this scoring more the takedowns?

RN:  Man, it’s not easy to takedown. It’s really hard, but the guys are good at it, they’re managing to keep the fight there for a while, so it’s different. If you look at the fight of Sean Sherk, I think he lost that fight…  The judges don’t get much about the ground game, if it’s not that strong Jiu-Jitsu, they give it for who has more takedowns. I think they should give point for the takedown defenses too. Once the guy defended a takedown, he should get a point too. Not only the takedown, but its defense as well.

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tags: UFC 119   Ryan Bader (detail)  Antonio Rogerio Nogueira   Minotouro   


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onepunchJD site profile image  

9/30/10 1:55 PM by onepunchJD

Judges should all be ex fighters, trainers, and refs.Not random "officials" who are overpaid, and who know as much about fighting as I know about ballroom dancing.I realize we have some refs in there now, which is fine. But a judge should have applicable experience to MMA in general to be qualified to judge an MMA fight.Also, I say this all the time, and I'm going to keep saying it..We need 10 min rounds in MMA!!Two, 10 min rounds with the option for a 5 min overtime, would go a long way toward more descisive finishes IMO.These days fighters can be so evenly matched, that three, 5 min rounds just isnt enough. These close descisions, like the Nog-Bader fight, are not fair for the fighters or the fans. NOBODY won or lost that fight, period. But for the record, If I had to score it, Nog wins.Id rather see lees fights on a card with more finishes and less contraversy, than alot of the "close descisions" that make me feel like I wasted my money.The free prelims were more satisfying than the main card.. and that wasnt a fluke. There is an obvious problem here that needs to be adressed. The greatest 1 on 1 sport in the world is getting watered down. I knew this would happen, but there are ways to fix it.

DaemonDragon site profile image  

9/30/10 1:10 PM by DaemonDragon

What you're saying doesn't really matter. "Pushing forward" would I suppose be aggression if it counts for anything at all, but aggression is the #4 scoring criteria. It is explicitly stated to be the among the least important scoring criteria. I haven't even ever read judges talking about scoring based on aggression, it's like the next to last possible tiebreaker ahead of only defense and typically ignored because it rarely matters, the other criteria are almost always already enough to judge a round.As for jab not being a damaging punch, what...? A jab is definitely damaging, especially a stiff jab. Even a weak jab can open up a cut. Jabs are punches and punches more often than not hurt. Try taking 10 weak jabs to the face and thinking it doesn't hurt. This is a very bad comparison.A lot of great posts have been made in this thread, Uncle Justice has made really good ones and hit the nail on the head. The judges fail at implementing their own official scoring directives. Education of the judges is something that really needs to be looked at, yet no one in a position of authority - either athletic commissions or UFC management - gives a damn about doing that. The government not caring about job performance is pretty standard for most bureaucracies, but the UFC could definitely get a high ROI on anything spent on educating judges, because adhering to the unified rules would make their product more entertaining no doubt.

Uncle Justice site profile image  

9/30/10 1:04 PM by Uncle Justice

Facts: Attempting takedowns and FAILING is clearly laid out as control points for the guy stuffing them. You are correct in that pursuing takedowns is effective aggression, but that's the 2nd to the last criteria, and not valued as highly as control (which Nog wins). It's all addressed in the Unified Rules, sir.  

Phil999 site profile image  

9/30/10 12:44 PM by Phil999

I didn't see it as complaining. He said it's a different game then Pride and he has to work at adapting to it.

louden swain site profile image  

9/30/10 12:24 PM by louden swain

Its like removing a jab from scoring.. Jab is not a damaging punch, but is and can be effective. Going back to your point about Bader getting 25% of TD's and still winning the rd.. attempting 7 + TD's can be viewed as pushing the pace. Moving forward attempting to dictate where the fight goes as opposed to standing in one spot or backing up...You have to look at all the angles that TD's represent.. not just the "damage" portion..

NovakHT site profile image  

9/30/10 12:16 PM by NovakHT

 "as a few posters mentioned...if u attempt a TD and it gets stopped it should be awarded as its a lack of control on the initiaters part which in a sense means he has no control and the opponent in technical speaking .."escaped"" Then the "wrestler" has technically escaped any times he avoids a submission attempt--

ausgepicht site profile image  

9/30/10 12:16 PM by ausgepicht

And Nog worships too much failed submissions and the life threatening jab.

RyannVonDoom site profile image  

9/30/10 11:53 AM by RyannVonDoom

 Bingo. These judges are horrible. 

Uncle Justice site profile image  

9/30/10 11:51 AM by Uncle Justice

 It's only crap to those who can't read.  The unified rules prioritize negating takedowns equally with landing them.  Nog more than double-worked Bader in that category. Also, a takedown is counted as offense under effective grappling, when it is nothing but a forced change of position; yet pulling guard and escaping are not. If that doesn't show you that TD's are over-valued, Bader won rounds 2 and 3 with a 20% and 25% success rate in TD's, and each round should be scored with effective striking as the #1 directive.  The 2nd was close, but Nog clearly won the 3rd with striking. If you STILL want to argue, call striking even and examine control, the next category:  the stuff to successful takedown ration was 4-2 for Nog (in the 2nd) and 5-2 Nog (in the 3rd).  Oh yeah, in each round, one of Bader's two takedowns only hit the floor briefly and Nog got right back to his feet with no offense being mounted by either fighter.

Carl Weathers site profile image  

9/30/10 11:43 AM by Carl Weathers

 And yet it's worth is greater in the eyes of judges than all of those combined