Japan’s Rich MMA History: The Ken Shamrock Interview (2015)

Part Three of Seven: Pancrase

By William Colosimo | wcolosimo@yahoo.com

William Colosimo: A top fighter for the organization had once told me that the Pancrase president was more of a figurehead; he wasn’t really in charge of Pancrase. Do you know if Funaki and Suzuki were the main people that made decisions for the direction of that company?

Ken Shamrock: You know, I was a little more involved with the company then and I do know that they were involved in a lot of the decisions on the direction of the company, but there were definitely eight people that were in the office that had more of a say.

WC: Eight people.

KS: Yes.

WC: You had a Pancrase contract, a lot of your fighters did also- so you’ve probably seen a number of them. I’m not asking for specifics but I’m wondering if you can give me a general idea on how a Pancrase contract was structured?

KS: You know, it depended on the fighter. If there was a guy that they were using quite a bit they would structure it on a yearly deal, like you got paid a lump sum of money for that year- up front– and you were required to fight a certain amount of times. If it was a guy that was just up and coming and he hadn’t proven himself yet, then they would probably pay him on a single fight deal until he wins a couple of them, and then they’ll put him on a yearly contract. But most of the time, most of the guys that came in that I represented- a lot of them that were in the top ten- would all be on a yearly contract and they would get that money up front.

WC: In your second book you said the same thing- I think it was Soranaka at the beginning of PWF-Gumi- he paid all your money for the year up front. It doesn’t seem like maybe the best business- in case you got injured, or had left. Do you know why they would pay up front? Was it just a good faith gesture to keep you?

KS: No, it’s because it wasn’t very much. Listen- and I’m not complaining, because I was very grateful. But, when you’ve got a kid that’s twenty-eight, twenty-nine years old that’s trying to find his way in life- and you put thirty thousand dollars in cash in three stacks, each with ten thousand dollars- and they hand it to you, and say Hey, sign this contract. You’re gonna fight eight times a year, here’s thirty thousand dollars, it’s yours to take home, tax free.- Wow! Yeah, cool- I’m all over it. But you don’t realize that when you finally get wise to it you’re going Wait a minute. That’s not a lot of money for a year. So, that’s how it worked early on was that that money was right there, it was easily obtainable, and you’d be jumping at it.

WC: In the first year or two of Pancrase, was thirty thousand about what someone would get if they were a good fighter?

KS: No, I would probably say sixty thousand, a hundred thousand for a year.

WC: When you were in Pancrase- did you ever get the impression from Pancrase management on who they felt their main competition was? Was it the RINGS organization?

KS: No, I think what they were looking at, at least in my opinion- was that we had no competition. Our competition was making sure that we could train enough guys, and get enough guys in there to be able to compete and have a full card. So there was a lot of things that we had to do to build those fighters up and train those fighters using me in the U.S. to help train new fighters and bring people up to speed fast enough so they could fight the young boys in Japan- and then of course me, Suzuki, Funaki, and some of the other guys who had more experience to compete at that top level until these guys underneath were good enough to compete at the top level.

WC: How was Pancrase viewed by the Japanese prowrestling fan base and the Japanese prowrestling magazines at the time?

KS: Well I think in the beginning no one really understood what it is we were doing. I think they thought like Oh, look at that. Wow, that was great- but they didn’t see much difference from the UWF or the UWFi (Union of Wrestling Forces International) until we started getting into it a little bit more- six months, a year into it- then they really started seeing that Hey wait a minute. This stuff isn’t fake. This is the real deal. But for so long the other organizations were trying to convince the fans that their style was hard-style along with ours. But when you put them up next to each other you could clearly tell that what we were doing and they were doing was nowhere near the same, at all.

WC: I had read where you said you showed those guys your diet at the end of the PWF-Gumi run, they came in lean for Pancrase, and then the organization published your diet as theirs. Was that a VHS tape or a book?

KS: I don’t remember. It was- and I didn’t really make a big deal out of it, but it was a little bit- because they even flew up to meet with me in Lodi- and I showed them everything that I was doing. Yeah- I didn’t understand that. I didn’t understand that at all- they didn’t want to give me any credit for that.

WC: Can you give me any highlights or basics of what your diet was at that time?

KS: Well, it’s pretty simple- I showed them the carbs, how to use the carbs- pastas and different things of that nature. I showed them the fishes late at night, steaks a couple times a week, making sure that you keep the red meat involved. I mean it was pretty basic. There wasn’t a whole lot to it- then of course there was my workouts, different types of workouts that I did that would either increase strength or increase oxygen. So, I ended up putting them through the whole gamut, and I showed them a lot of stuff when they came up. And then, they came into Pancrase- everybody’s body was changed. And I knew that they used my diet. I knew what they used as far as my training stuff- and it was fine. But then, after I was there a little bit- I realized that they had published it as their own (laughter).

WC: In the March 2000 issue of Full Contact Fighter you said that in general in Japan, Funaki was your main trainer and Takahashi was your main sparring partner. Now- through the end of the UWF, all of PWF-Gumi, and Pancrase- was that true? Were there other main forces in Japan for teaching and sparring?

KS: Well, I would have to say- with me and Takahashi, when he first came in- as a young boy- I was the one that developed him, and I trained with him all the time. Even when we had our matches- he was a real hard nosed kid. I really enjoyed working with him because he pushed me constantly. Even though I was much better than him and more skilled he constantly kept coming. So, Funaki put me and him together because he knew the potential that Takahashi had, and he knew I would be able to push him and be able to get him where he needed to be. And Takahashi became a great fighter- even though we had our differences and he had to be put in line and checked a couple times, which I didn’t mind doing- the fact is I loved his intensity. I enjoyed his intensity and I enjoyed his determination, but like I said, a couple times- one in particular, where he was going to try and show the teacher- and he got lit up for it.

WC: Looking at those PWF-Gumi tapes, he debuted on their second card- are you saying he was basically your young boy in Japan during that time?

KS: Well, no, I wouldn’t even go that far- I just know that I was working with him a lot, and Funaki put him with me a lot when we were rolling- and that’s all I rolled with in the later years- that’s all I went with for a long time.

WC: Funaki and Suzuki- in your opinion, from what you saw- what kind of relationship did they have while in PWF-Gumi and did it change after a while in Pancrase?

KS: I’m not sure, just from what I could tell– I know that in Fujiwara-Gumi they were tight, they were in agreement, along with myself- that we wanted something more towards a shoot-style. And we went in that direction, everybody was on board for a while. I think there was definitely some friction there, but- I know exactly who the top dog was, and I was there. There was nobody better than Funaki that were Japanese, Funaki was the top dog. No matter what anybody else says, I was there. And that’s why Suzuki had such a problem, was because Funaki- even when they were in the UWF, Funaki was better than him, and had always been better than him, and he just couldn’t take it- and the reason why Funaki was always better than Suzuki was because Suzuki refused to learn the striking.

WC: When you say Funaki was top dog, are you talking in the company he was the boss or are you talking about his physical abilities- he was the best Japanese fighter and everybody knew it?

KS: He was the best Japanese fighter and everybody knew it.

WC: Was any friction between those two maybe because they had opposing views on what direction Pancrase should take?

KS: Yeah, I think there was a direction that was supposed to happen, and Suzuki didn’t go along with Funaki or vice versa, but I do know this- this I know for sure– Funaki is the kind of guy that would teach somebody with the hopes of them becoming better. Suzuki would teach somebody in the hopes that they wouldn’t get better than him or did not want them to get better than him. I got better than Funaki and he was happy for me. Takahashi- I worked with him and I rolled with him on a daily basis when I was in Japan- basically I was the guy that taught him in the beginning and got him up to speed where I was at where he could actually challenge me- and I was happy for him for that. Takahashi got good enough to where he was telling Suzuki what to do. Manabu Yamada was a guy that came in from Shooto who challenged me in the main event for the title of Pancrase champion that beat Suzuki in the semi-finals- he got better than Suzuki, so there was two guys in that organization that rose above Suzuki because Suzuki wouldn’t learn to strike. And they became better than Funaki- I mean Takahashi was giving Funaki everything he could handle.

WC: When Funaki and Takahashi fought in Pancrase early on, on the fourth card or so- it looked like Takahashi was winning, then Funaki got a little brutal in what I think was an illegal blow when Takahashi was down- it seemed like Funaki knew Takahashi was very dangerous and he couldn’t play with him.

KS: Yeah- that’s true. Like I said, Takahashi had my personality. I worked with him a lot, and he had my personality. He came after people, and they had to be on their toes with him- even though in the earlier days there was some stuff in there that he didn’t want to do, he did it- but they paid for it. But in the real shoot, when we were there- he was a guy that people had to watch out for because he brought it every time.

WC: Speaking of Takahashi- not just in your two PWF-Gumi fights, but also your two Pancrase fights- he seemed to be able to dominate in the takedowns, the double legs. Was that his strength? Was he able to do that a lot to you in the gym?

KS: I think that- my thought process wasn’t to stop him from taking me down- it was to land more strikes and punish him, and not worry about whether I went to the ground or not because I was OK there. I was gonna make him pay for the takedowns. If I was just gonna stay up and strike and tag him here and there and defend the takedown I could have done that. But my thought process was I’m gonna go in and unload on him- and I’m gonna give up my legs by unloading. By throwing hard shots, I don’t have a good foundation to stop a shot. But I was OK with that, as long as I could land a couple kicks or punches before he got the takedown because the damage I could do to him while he’s trying to take me down as opposed to the damage he does to me by taking me down- I weighed that out and thought Wow, that’s a good exchange for me. I get four or five shots on him and he gets a takedown- I like it!

WC: You had mentioned in the past that Pancrase had started as a full shoot in September 1993, and as time went on- because people were fighting every six weeks- it takes a toll. And of course new fighters need to get over with the fans. To me, it looks like maybe early 1994 to at the latest the end of 1995 was when the works took place. Would you agree with that assessment?

KS: There were no works. There was only one time where there was a questionable situation- and I’m not gonna elaborate on it, it was just because someone had gone to the dentist, and they hadn’t been able to train, they couldn’t really change it- the marketing was already done- so there are things that happened. And I’m not gonna say what, or who, or when. But I will say this- the rest of everything that happened in Pancrase, nobody that I know of, that as far as I was involved with- put anybody over. If you were good enough, and you could beat the other guy you did it.

WC: The two Suzuki fights- would you rather not speak on those, or can I bring those up?

KS: Yeah- you know the thing is you can bring them up but I can’t talk about them. I mean, I think I’ve said enough throughout my career- and the things that I have exposed, and I’m just not gonna go there again- I already got too much heat for it from the last couple times. But, I think people know who I am, and if it’s an organization that doesn’t say ProWrestling- I’m not going to put myself into a situation where I’m going to let somebody degrade me, it’s not going to happen. You know, I put myself in a bad situation one time, and I never let it happen again.

Part One of Seven: An Introduction to the Hard-style Pro Wrestling

Part Two of Seven: The Professional Wrestling Fujiwara-Gumi

Monday – Part Four of Seven: Pancrase Controversy

Tuesday – Part Five of Seven: Creating The Lion’s Den and Entering the First UFC

Wednesday – Part Six of Seven: UFC 2, UFC 3, and the Machado Family

Thursday – Part Seven of Seven: The Russian Bear and The Hammer

Visit Ken at www.kenshamrock.com

William Colosimo is a very part time writer who is always interested in interviewing fighters from either a submission wrestling lineage or the no holds barred era of fighting

Ken Shamrock is looking to reacquire all old Lion’s Den video footage- recordings of tryouts, gym fights, etcetera. If anything is in your possession, please feel free to contact him at www.kenshamrock.com