Refresh | Add To Favorites | Share | Email | Subscribe | Check IPs
 


Is He Dead? Choke Recovery and What to Expect...


[ 1 ] 2
From: Stephan Kesting 178 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile
Posted: 7/27/09 1:13 PM
Edited: 07/27/09 1:16 PM
Free Book/Course for BJJ Beginners, Owner
Member Since: 3/27/04
Posts: 1796
 

The first time I saw someone choked unconscious it scared the crap out of me. And it was made worse by the fact that it was a friend of mine...

It was many years ago at a local tournament. My friend was winning his match but got caught in a sneaky gi choke. He was (and still is) a stubborn bastard, so he refused to tap and passed out. He might have been out for about 10 seconds before anyone realized what was going on.  When the referee finally separated the two competitors, I could see my buddy lying flat on his back and he wasn't moving. From my position in the stands I couldn't even see if he was breathing.

But then it got even worse...

He started to snore REALLY loudly. We're talking horrible-keep-you-awake-from-the-next-room-sleep-apnea kind of snoring. Everyone at the tournament could hear it. Then, just to make things even more dramatic, he started convulsing a little bit, like he was having a small epileptic seizure.

Finally - to my infinite relief - he woke up, sat up and looked around sheepishly.  Objectively he'd probably only been out for a total of 15 to 20 seconds (including the snoring and convulsing) but it sure seemed a lot longer than that to me at the time!

In fact this is a fairly normal sequence for someone who has been choked out. The snoring is normal. The mini-convulsions are to be expected. And they're going to be a bit light headed when they wake up.

Judo and BJJ coaches seem to be divided as to what to do if someone gets choked out. The most common approach is to stand around and wait for the person to wake up. This works just fine 99% of the time. There are traditional judo resuscitation techniques (known as "kappo"). Kappo is an esoteric subject, and I don't know much about it. But I'll give you some guidance coming more from a western first aid point of view.

In first aid class I've been taught to roll unconscious people onto their side or into the 3/4 prone position (IMPORTANT: you only do this if you're sure that there's no neck or back injury). Being on the side helps drain fluids from the mouth and prevents the tongue from blocking the airway. And there are some Judo coaches who agree that this is a good idea.

I don't want to scare you with all this talk about unconscious people. Most accounts of chokes gone bad involve cops trying to restrain someone high on PCP by squeezing their neck with a billy club. Hopefully that's not happening at your club.

In fact, chokes and strangles are fairly safe.

The Kodokan, which is the central organizing body for Judo, has conducted studies on the safety of chokes ("shimewaza"). The results are encouraging: Judoka have been choking each other for more than 100 years without any reported fatalities.

Attacking the neck is part of submission grappling and BJJ. If you do this sport long enough then eventually someone will get choked out right in front of you.

Now you know what to expect when that happens!

Stephan Kesting
Grapplearts.com
   

 

From: andre 416 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile
Posted: 7/27/09 1:18 PM
Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 40062
 
Gene LeBell used to love choking students out. He choked me out the first day I met him. lol

From: PittBJJ 13 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile
Posted: 7/27/09 1:50 PM
Member Since: 7/8/09
Posts: 36
 
andre - Gene LeBell used to love choking students out. He choked me out the first day I met him. lol

 Boy that sucks, not a very good way to get student to come back.

Member Since: 3/27/04
Posts: 1797
 
One technique that's used a lot (and has been used on me) to resuscitate unconscious people is to elevate the legs.  

This makes a certain kind of sense, but I'm loathe to recommend it unless there's actually some research out there that it does some good (after all, there lots of old medical procedures that seemed logical and obvious that were actually quite horrendous).  Does anyone know of any research or studies conducted on leg elevation as a method to speed up recovery back to consciousness?

From: elgringo 10 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile
Posted: 7/27/09 2:26 PM
Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 9127
 
i had the opportunity to train with Dan Henderson some time ago and his procedure for an unconscious student is to drop a monster right hand right on their jaw

From: Pson Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile
Posted: 7/27/09 2:34 PM
Member Since: 4/15/09
Posts: 217
 
We always choked each other out in Judo classes and the way I was shown to wake them up was:


Slowly rasie their top half up and start raising their arms up and down to get the blood and air flowing. This is what I have seen people use and have been used on me often. The rolling on the side seems like a nice one too, but I don't like letting them just wake up.

From: PittBJJ 13 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile
Posted: 7/27/09 2:49 PM
Member Since: 7/8/09
Posts: 43
 
elgringo - i had the opportunity to train with Dan Henderson some time ago and his procedure for an unconscious student is to drop a monster right hand right on their jaw

 hahahahahahaha

From: Baroquen Record 21 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile
Posted: 7/27/09 2:51 PM
Member Since: 4/20/07
Posts: 12431
 
i remember the 1st time i put someone to sleep training. cezekiel choke from my guard after being rolled form mount. he just slumped over and when he woke up i lauged at him and we kept training.

From: Baroquen Record 21 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile
Posted: 7/27/09 3:00 PM
Member Since: 4/20/07
Posts: 12433
 
ezekiel

From: TBoy2 18 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile
Posted: 7/27/09 3:18 PM
Member Since: 3/18/02
Posts: 200
 
This is an interesting subject. From what I have seen many BJJ schools just seem to drag the person to the side of the mat and wait for them to recover.

I am a Judo black belt and when I see someone go out in my Judo class I use Kappo. I am a 3rd generation Judoka and this was taught to me by my great uncle and works well. I have heard which you mentioned Stephan, that 99% of the time people will wake up on their own. It's the 1% that's the problem.

So if I go out I would prefer to go out in a Judo school as opposed to a BJJ school. lol

Oh, and yes I am also a BJJ guy and have spent way more time doing BJJ than Judo over the last 8 years.

From: Baroquen Record 21 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile
Posted: 7/27/09 3:24 PM
Member Since: 4/20/07
Posts: 12437
 
come on its gotta be less than 1% that dont wake up.

From: John Bennett 1 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile
Posted: 7/27/09 3:31 PM
Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 33
 
Depriving the brain of oxygen (hypoxia) often causes "Agonal Respirations".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agonal_respiration

I don't know why people seizure when choked out. When cops used to choke out arrestees back in the good old days they called it Doing the Funky Chicken.

The Recovery Position is used mainly because it helps prevent fluids from being aspirated into the lungs if the person vomits.

If a person aspirates vomit into their lungs, it coats the inside of their lungs and they literally drown. I've seen it happen. They die fast.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recovery_position

Don't put your fingers in an unconcious person's mouth to pull out their mouthguard unless it's blocking off the airway. Ouch! I learned that the hard way.

From: TBoy2 18 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile
Posted: 7/27/09 3:34 PM
Member Since: 3/18/02
Posts: 202
 
That 1% could be from the old days. I think these days more people in Judo and BJJ know how to choke correctly and safely.

You could always do you own experiment and choke out 100 guys and see if one doesn't come back. = )

From: Ray Blackburn Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile
Posted: 7/27/09 3:38 PM
Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 3291
 
As a jiujitsu guy I choked out my opponent in my very first tournament match with an ezekiel. He passed out with his eyes open, and started foaming at the mouth & convulsing. This was at the first Gracie Association tournament in Torrance, in 1997 (I think).

Since then as a NAGA official I've probably reffed about 50 guys who've been choked out over the years. The victim's reaction can vary. Sometimes they go out with eyes open, eyes closed, I haven't seen the convulsing/foaming thing too often. I've heard of victims pissing or crapping their pants but thankfully (to my knowledge anyway), I have not personally seen that.

Although I think all choke victims will "awaken" on their own without any intervention, I was always taught to turn the victim on their back, and lift their legs up so that the blood flows back to the brain. This is my standard practice, and the victim has always regained consciousness within five seconds or so of doing that. The resulting memory loss is occasionally amusing.

RAY

From: Rhymenoceros 224 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile
Posted: 7/27/09 3:40 PM
Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 6414
 
I think the best thing to do is to get everyone off the mat and turn the lights off before they wake up.

Member Since: 3/27/04
Posts: 1798
 
 that's funny!

From: None So Blind 205 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile
Posted: 7/27/09 7:30 PM
Edited: 07/28/09 12:15 AM
Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 10215
 
I'm a neuropsychologist, and I always keep an eye out for things like this (chokes and sequelae). Choking is a very acute form of stroke, and I've always been interested in the mechanism.

I do recall seeing in a book on sports-related head injuries published in the early 90's that there was an incident in Japan where an older judoka (very, very fuzzy on the age, but IIRC he was late 50's) was choked and subsequently had a stroke and died. The prevailing theory was that since the guy had massive atherosclerosis in his carotids (big plaque accumulations in the arteries, this was determined in the autopsy), the choke had perhaps dislodged a piece of it, which then floated on upstream into one of his cerebral arteries, which would of course cause a stroke. (edit - initially said choke ;-)  )

However, no one could be sure about that, the science just isn't there to prove that the guy might not have had one had he been sitting down reading, or perhaps engaging in any rigorous exercise. It's very open to speculation.

The good news out of that was that it spurred a *massive* investigation into the effects of chokes, and I believe the results were referenced by Stephen in the first post - after years of many projects and studies in Japan (often by neurologists and other docs who were also judoka), the consensus was that no one had ever been killed in competition by a choke, and the risk of anything like the one man who had a stroke was less than lottery-type odds....   

From: Ridgeback 7 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile
Posted: 7/27/09 8:20 PM
Member Since: 7/3/07
Posts: 12078
 
Rhymenoceros - I think the best thing to do is to get everyone off the mat and turn the lights off before they wake up.

 Royce Gracie said this was an old Gracie gag they did on people quite often.  That would have to be a strange few moments when you came to for sure.  Twilight Zone episode.

From: shen 632 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile
Posted: 7/27/09 8:22 PM
Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 10112
 
andre - Gene LeBell used to love choking students out. He choked me out the first day I met him. lol


I think Gene LeBell has LITERALLY choked-out more people than any other living person.

From: rbnsn82 Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile
Posted: 7/27/09 10:58 PM
Member Since: 9/27/06
Posts: 11
 
raising of the legs helps get the blood from your legs back to your upper body, since the legs are the greatest distance from ur head and heart, it's a way to assist in circulating the blood from them. this is what i've been told

From: Tux 1 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile
Posted: 7/28/09 12:05 PM
Member Since: 6/3/09
Posts: 23
 
elgringo - i had the opportunity to train with Dan Henderson some time ago and his procedure for an unconscious student is to drop a monster right hand right on their jaw


I laughed until I cried! THANKS!

Member Since: 3/27/04
Posts: 1799
 
 I wanted to know about any research about the effectiveness of the legs-in-the-air position.

"BJJ Medic" on Sherdog finally helped me out. He told me about some research on the so-called Trendelenburg postion. This head down, legs up position was used during and after World War 1 to help manage shock.

Recent research, however, indicates that this position does nothing to help with shock, and increases the risk of choking on your own tongue (which is, by the way, the most common cause for blocked airways in unconscious people). Click here to read The Myth of the Trendelenburg Position for yourself.

So until someone actually does proper research on the legs-in-the-air position, specifically with regard to waking up unconscious people, I'm NOT going to use it. The 'treatment' at this point only has risks, and no proven benefits.

From: molsonman 57 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile
Posted: 7/30/09 9:01 PM
Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 8171
 
Do people really choke on their own tongue or is that just a myth?

From: Stephan Kesting 178 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile
Posted: 7/30/09 9:29 PM
Edited: 07/30/09 9:29 PM
Free Book/Course for BJJ Beginners, Owner
Member Since: 3/27/04
Posts: 1800
 
 It happens all the time.  It's not that you swallow your tongue or anything like that.  It's that, when you're flat on your back and unconscious, that the tongue relaxes backwards and blocks the airway.

That's why firefighters and paramedics insert airways on unconscious people.  If you were awake and I tried put an airway in or intubate you you'd gag.  If you're unconscious though, it's neccessary and it's pretty much standard operating procedure, for exactly the aforementioned reason.

 

From: wombat 7 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile
Posted: 8/2/09 10:21 PM
Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 2778
 
Truth: A crazy old judo guy once told me that if a person gets choked out, you need to use a clothes-pin to keep them from swallowing their own tongue. Fact: I did not allow him to choke me.

Refresh | Add To Favorites | Share | Email | Subscribe | Check IPs
 

[ 1 ] 2

Reply Post

You must log in to post a reply. Click here to login.

Shop | Contact Us | Advertising | Create Account | Links