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UnderGround Forums >> Let's hear it for K-1 level striking!


1/31/10 2:16 PM
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orcus
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 "Please watch Kid Yamamoto vs Zambidis, or Igor Vov's k1 fight for an example of this."

There is a reason K-1 MAX is called K-1 MAX and not K-1 -- it's a totally different talent pool and much higher level of skill. I don't see all the competitors in the MAX GP going down every time they get touched, I never saw Masato get stopped in seconds by an ugly MMA-style bumrush as Badr did to Schilt in their first fight.

lol @ bringing up Igor. Yeah, a 6'5" guy running and throwing leg kicks all night against a 5'8" brawler 10 years ago really closes the book on the subject.

"
cries about everything other than Zuffa-produced American MMA"

I'll take that with a grain of salt from the guy who sucks the dick of everything other than Zuffa-produced American MMA.

"
Are you suggesting that Robbie Lawler doesn't have extremely heavy hands for a middleweight? Being susceptible to a Robbie Lawler KO = questionable chin? "

He has heavy hands, sure. However, I can't think of anyone else who was put into a coma by one punch from him. Also, you're missing the point that when Melvin's chin has been questioned before, the response has always been "lol that's what happens when a 250lb K-1 level striker tags you, no one in MMA of Melvin's size is going to do that; lol he KO'd Mark Hunt what do you think he'd do to some 185lb MMA scrub?"

The fact is that Lawler is tough and heavy-handed but is nowhere close to one of the best "strikers" in MMA. He nearly killed Manhoef and, other than his leg, was completely fine despite all the scary looking punches and bodykicks Melvin was throwing -- and it has to be remembered that he WAS stopped by leg kicks the only other time he fought someone who threw them, so doing damage with them is not some incredible endorsement of Manhoef's deadly striking. Lawler did exactly what he did to Ninja -- cover up and wait for an opening. Would have worked beautifully if he could defend leg kicks; as it is, it got dicey but he still won the fight with one of the only punches he bothered throwing.

"
Im willing to take Vitor against Anderson "

Done! It's funny though, both our bets have been fights I could see going either way. I'm definitely more confident about Anderson winning than I was Sherk, though. 30 days?





1/31/10 2:19 PM
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BuddyRevell
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Duke Roufus - In my humble opinion MMA striking is just so different from K-1. Size of gloves & thinking about take downs change everything. When I spar MMA with my team I feel as IF I only have 25% of my arsenal. Where as in straight K-1 I can risk more with out the risk of going to the ground. In K-1 you set down on your punches & throw longer combos. Where as in MMA larger fighting area as well. Largest ring for K-1 24ft, octagon 32ft.

As well, when I have fought Muay Thai rules I have to look for different things than a K-1 match.

Kudos for the evolution of MMA fighters winning against a striker. For that matter GSP out wrestling guys who have a wrestling background & striker Marcus Davis submitting guys.

That is what makes this sport interesting to watch. the X factor.

 Great post, Duke. I think I'll be copying and pasting this a lot when the topic of MMA striking comes up!
1/31/10 2:36 PM
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Diego stole my name
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"Done! It's funny though, both our bets have been fights I could see going either way. I'm definitely more confident about Anderson winning than I was Sherk, though. 30 days?"

We are on!
1/31/10 3:35 PM
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orcus
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 Nick Diaz made Robbie look like an amateur standing en route to KOing him. All Melvin did was land a bunch of leg kicks (unlike the 170lb Pete Spratt, he failed to stop Lawler with them) and throw a lot of blocked punches before being KTFO.
1/31/10 3:40 PM
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TapouT24
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BJJkilla - melvin's chin was always his downfall in K-1, idk why people are surprised when he gets knocked out.
1/31/10 6:30 PM
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Cyril Jeff
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 Robbie won't walk right for a week...
Great comeback bomb.
1/31/10 6:39 PM
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Jsteven
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 I can't wait for Overeem's K-1 level striking to come in and wreck Fedor then take over the UFC heavyweight division.
1/31/10 7:32 PM
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Squatdog
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All Melvin did was land a bunch of leg kicks (unlike the 170lb Pete Spratt, he failed to stop Lawler with them) and throw a lot of blocked punches before being KTFO.



BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!





(Trolling is a bannable offence)
1/31/10 7:43 PM
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orcus
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 We have Robbie's training partner on another thread saying Robbie didn't have a mark on him and is walking fine today...what exactly do you think Melvin did that was so amazing?
1/31/10 7:54 PM
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super chin
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lots of agenda driven drivel on this thread from the usual suspects - orcus, herring etc.

getting knocked out by a heavy-handed lawler can happen to anyone wearing those gloves. manhoef was completely dominating him before that, and destroying that leg. i'll take robbie's own word and limp the night of the fight over his training partner's word today.

this is just a oblique attack on overeem, hunt, and many other k1 level strikers.

as another poster said, i'll take zambidis and masato against anyone in mma at their weight in a kickboxing match.

but it also shouldn't surprise people that the general level of striking is improving in mma. people train their striking to a level comparable to k1 participants. yes they have other aspects to worry about, but there are bound to be some fighters with the talent to succeed in k1 who pick up striking well, but chose mma.
1/31/10 9:13 PM
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Altofsky
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 "Another hypetrain derailed. Great work, Robbie!"

Hype? The man deserves the praise he gets and he showed why last night.

Great work? Lawler got his ass handed to him for the majority of a round and found an opening. Great comback for certain, but as a whole, his performance sucked.
1/31/10 9:54 PM
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Squatdog
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Manhoef beat the absolute LIVING CRAP out of Lawler the entire fight. His kicks repeatedly knocked Lawler's leg up into the air and left him hobbling and unable to walk, then landed several hard combinations, which forced Lawler to scurry across the cage.

Lawler pulled a miracle punch out of his ass. The ONLY punch he landed the entire fight.

orcus -  We have Robbie's training partner on another thread saying Robbie didn't have a mark on him and is walking fine today...what exactly do you think Melvin did that was so amazing?


"[he did] a LOT of damage, he kicked me REALLY hard on the calf and knees, so real sore."

-Robbie Lawler
1/31/10 9:59 PM
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Herring In A Fur Coat
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 I'd rather be real sore and awake.
1/31/10 10:00 PM
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orcus
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Edited: 01/31/10 10:00 PM
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So having sore calf and knees is getting the absolute LIVING CRAP beat out of you? And why are you using an interview backstage after the fight as some kind of contradiction of how he feels today?

"His kicks repeatedly knocked Lawler's leg up into the air and left him hobbling and unable to walk"

lol, you don't think Lawler was throwing his own legs up in an attempt to "roll with" the kicks? You really think Melvin kicked his leg five feet into the air every time? Unable to walk? Did he get dropped and I missed it? He sure had no problem using those legs to pounce on Melvin once he dropped him.


Oh no, hard combinations forced Lawler to scurry! You know, just like how he did against Ninja!

Again, he did EXACTLY what he did against Ninja -- cover up and play keepaway until he saw the opening to drop the bomb. With a few differences: One, Melvin looks a lot scarier in action than Ninja does. Two, Lawler is seemingly incapable of defending leg kicks. And three, it didn't even take one round to find that opening against Manhoef, whereas it took four against Ninja.
 
1/31/10 10:46 PM
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Fudge Cake
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I thought if Robbie made it out of round 1 that he might keel over and die on the stool from the damage he looked to have sustained from getting Manhoef'ed. But then LOL what a shocking turn of events!
1/31/10 10:47 PM
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whistleblower
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lockon -
orcus - Remember when everyone said Anderson and Chuck would get killed if they tried to stand with Manhoef? And those guys actually know how to defend leg kicks, unlike Lawler who was stopped by them the one time he fought a kickboxer.

Do the Pro-Manhoef and K-1 Striker guys get under your skin that much?

Get over it.

It's just yet another one of orcus' fixated agendas.

But I especially love how this is the same guy who was obsessively spamming the forum - several times a day for over a week after the Fedor-Arlovski fight - about how Fedor's KO was just a "lucky punch" (orcus' own words) that didn't really prove anything, and how Arlovski actually looked like he was the better striker overall.

But NOW? Orcus takes the Lawler KO - where, unlike Arlovski against Fedor, Manhoef actually landed shots that hurt and/or damaged Lawler - and tries to use it as this representative example of superior striking on Lawler's part.

So where are all the cries of meaningless "lucky punch" as you kept repeatedly squawking for Fedor? Wouldn't this KO also qualify, according to your own previous standards - and actually even more so, because wasn't Lawler being beaten even more definitively in the standup than Fedor was, up until that "lucky punch"?

It's funny how out-of-nowhere one-punch KO's suddenly count as definitive when Fedor isn't the one throwing them - or when they happen to occur against any one of orcus' other pet agendas, like Manhoef or K-1 in general.

The hypocrisy is as rich as it is typical. The only thing consistent about orcus are his double standards.
1/31/10 11:09 PM
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RabbiVJ
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 manhoef wasnt rocking his skirt...thats why he lost.
1/31/10 11:16 PM
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whistleblower
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Herring In A Fur Coat - BUT MYTH OF K-1 LEVEL STRIKING NEVER DIE~!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111111111

And what exactly is the "MYTH OF K-1 LEVEL STRIKING"?

That K-1 has the best kickboxers in the world - the best of whom would generally be favored to beat everyone else in the world in a kickboxing match, most of the time? (Btw, it's hilarious how you keep repeatedly piping up about subjects and sports that you don't even follow closely. Please stick to post-TUF Zuffa MMA.)

Saying "K-1 level striker" is essentially the same thing as saying "UFC-level fighter."

Generally they are the best in the world at what they do - and their absolute best are generally the absolute best in the world - but the individual quality can still vary dramatically. So can the individual results on any given night, given all the variables - and especially the wildly unpredictable nature of striking in particular.

Because in a stand-up fight, one strike - one moment, from completely out of nowhere - can be all it takes to completely turn the tide of a fight, or even end it all. And in K-1, as with all striking contests - including MMA, which includes striking as an element - there is more inherent potential for such isolated and aberrational moments. (Yeah, who thinks Sokoudjou is actually a better technical striker than Li'l Nog, or that Serra was a better striker or MMA fighter than GSP?)

And as far as individual quality goes - "K-1 level striker" can mean everything from Jan Nortje to Mighty Mo to Badr Hari. Just like "UFC-level fighter" can mean everything from Kimbo to Marcus Davis to Anderson Silva.

But I would still pick the very best from K-1 to regularly outstrike anyone else, most of the time, in a striking fight - just as I would pick the very best from the UFC to regularly outfight anyone else, most of the time, in an MMA fight. (But certainly, that doesn't ALWAYS happen in either case.)

And the bottom line is this. Overall, who would you pick - from any other combat sport in the world - to actually beat the likes of Schilt, Hari, Bonjasky, Alistair, Aerts, Teixeira, and Le Banner straight-up in a striking contest, most of the time? If you can't come up with anyone - then again, what exactly is the "MYTH OF K-1 LEVEL STRIKING"?

When the reality is that K-1 has most of the best world-class kickboxers around - which is not really a myth at all. And if you can regularly beat the best in K-1, then you have proven yourself in turn to be a world-class kickboxer as well - and thus, "K-1 level" (in the best sense).

(And btw, so far Schilt and Alistair have been the only MMA fighters to come in and achieve consistent, continuing top-level success in K-1 - both of whom already came from a preexisting striking background, which they had trained in for years and which was their primary foundation in MMA [and even BEFORE MMA]. It's not like they only suddenly picked up striking from their MMA-specific training alone, and then only on that basis, started dominating K-1.)
1/31/10 11:21 PM
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Squatdog
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lol, you don't think Lawler was throwing his own legs up in an attempt to "roll with" the kicks?


LMFAO!!!!

I guess Dan Severn was using the same masterful technique against Rizzo...

Again, he did EXACTLY what he did against Ninja -- cover up and play keepaway until he saw the opening to drop the bomb. With a few differences:


He let Ninja beat the living shit out of him and didn't land a single strike, except for one miracle right hand after he had been rocked and battered across the cage?

But I especially love how this is the same guy who was obsessively spamming the forum - several times a day for over a week after the Fedor-Arlovski fight - about how Fedor's KO was just a "lucky punch" (orcus' own words) that didn't really prove anything, and how Arlovski actually looked like he was the better striker overall.

But NOW? Orcus takes the Lawler KO - where, unlike Arlovski against Fedor, Manhoef actually landed shots that hurt and/or damaged Lawler - and tries to use it as this representative example of superior striking on Lawler's part.


Exactly.

If the roles were reversed, Orcus would be trolling with how Manhoef 'got lucky' with a fluke punch...
1/31/10 11:30 PM
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Herring In A Fur Coat
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whistleblower - 
Herring In A Fur Coat - BUT MYTH OF K-1 LEVEL STRIKING NEVER DIE~!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111111111

And what exactly is the "MYTH OF K-1 LEVEL STRIKING"?

... FRAT ...
The myth of "K-1 level striking" is that anyone who's had a modicum of success in K-1 is going to destroy any MMA fighter standing in an MMA fight.  Anyone who's claimed that Anderson Silva would be shooting for takedowns in a hypothetical fight with Manhoef, or anyone who thinks that Overeem's success in K-1 has any bearing on his MMA career, is buying into this myth.  It really wasn't a FRAT-worthy statement.
1/31/10 11:31 PM
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Dogmeat 1
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Melvin's record in K-1 and other higher level kickboxing promotions is only 9-8. Futhermore he was knocked out cold in 6 out of 8 of those losses, usually in the first round. Melvin has shown that he has the skills and power to knockout nearly anyone but that his weak chin and mental game cause him to lose nearly as much as he wins.

all this loss shows is that his flaws are just as exploitable in MMA as they are in kickboxing.
1/31/10 11:43 PM
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Magic8
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whistleblower - 
lockon -
orcus - Remember when everyone said Anderson and Chuck would get killed if they tried to stand with Manhoef? And those guys actually know how to defend leg kicks, unlike Lawler who was stopped by them the one time he fought a kickboxer.

Do the Pro-Manhoef and K-1 Striker guys get under your skin that much?

Get over it.

It's just yet another one of orcus' fixated agendas.

But I especially love how this is the same guy who was obsessively spamming the forum - several times a day for over a week after the Fedor-Arlovski fight - about how Fedor's KO was just a "lucky punch" (orcus' own words) that didn't really prove anything, and how Arlovski actually looked like he was the better striker overall.

But NOW? Orcus takes the Lawler KO - where, unlike Arlovski against Fedor, Manhoef actually landed shots that hurt and/or damaged Lawler - and tries to use it as this representative example of superior striking on Lawler's part.

So where are all the cries of meaningless "lucky punch" as you kept repeatedly squawking for Fedor? Wouldn't this KO also qualify, according to your own previous standards - and actually even more so, because wasn't Lawler being beaten even more definitively in the standup than Fedor was, up until that "lucky punch"?

It's funny how out-of-nowhere one-punch KO's suddenly count as definitive when Fedor isn't the one throwing them - or when they happen to occur against any one of orcus' other pet agendas, like Manhoef or K-1 in general.

The hypocrisy is as rich as it is typical. The only thing consistent about orcus are his double standards.

 
1/31/10 11:47 PM
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Squatdog
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Robbie Lawler
 
Melvin Manhoef
3/7
Total Strikes Landed/Thrown
23/41
43%
Percentage
56%
 
 
 
1/3
Total Arm Strikes Landed/Thrown
12/22
33%
Percentage
55%
1
Power Strikes Landed
12
0
Clinch Strikes Landed
0
 
 
 
1/3
Total Leg Strikes Landed/Thrown
11/19
33%
Percentage
58%
1
Kicks Landed
10
0
Knees Landed
1
 
 
 
1/1
Ground Strikes Landed/Thrown
0/0
100%
Percentage
0%
 
 
 
0/0
Takedowns/Attempts
0/0
0
Submission Attempts
0
0
Knockdowns
0
0
Dominant Positions
0
1/31/10 11:47 PM
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Squatdog
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Yup.
1/31/10 11:48 PM
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orcus
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 "He let Ninja beat the living shit out of him and didn't land a single strike, except for one miracle right hand after he had been rocked and battered across the cage?"

What rocked him? A leg kick? A punch to his arm?

"
But NOW? Orcus takes the Lawler KO - where, unlike Arlovski against Fedor, Manhoef actually landed shots that hurt and/or damaged Lawler - and tries to use it as this representative example of superior striking on Lawler's part."

There are a few differences that your Brain of a Robot Faggot cannot comprehend:

1) Prior to the KO punch, Lawler had not been flailing at air and falling all over himself with missed punches as Fedor had; in fact it was obvious to anyone that he was waiting for the best moment. Therefore a logical person would see one as more of a sharpshooter and the other as a blindfolded child pitching darts at a board and maybe one of them hits a bullseye.

2) Lawler has most of his wins by standing (T)KOs, Fedor to that point had exactly one, against a nobody. So again one would seem more par for the course and the other more like an anomaly. Just like Randleman's one standing KO in his career, against Crocop, does not make anyone on the face of the planet think he is a superior striker to Mirko.

3)
Did I even say Lawler was the superior striker? I merely lol'd at "K-1 level striking" being this unattainable level of standup mastery that will destroy anyone foolish enough to stand with one of its practicioners. And two posts into the thread I said maybe I should just be mocking "K-1 level" chins. You'd think a tiresome pedant like yourself would have taken the time to verify that I said Lawler's striking was superior before making a stink about it. On the very first page of this thread you'll find where I said another couple leg kicks and Lawler probably would have been done.

lol @ windbag popping up on every thread I post on now, puling some bullshit based solely on the fact that he has no conception of how actual humans converse and no conception of how normal people think, too fired up with his e-boner to realize I didn't even say what he's arguing against. Tomato Can described you to a T on that other thread. Cliff's Notes: You suck.



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