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12/2/10 9:40 PM
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Underground News
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The Underground News, Editor
 

California will experiment with a new points system for amateur mixed martial arts bouts beginning in 2011, a move that could lead to significant changes in judging at the professional level. The test will be conducted by the California Amateur Mixed Martial Arts Organization in conjunction with the California State Athletic Commission.

Fights will be scored under both standards, said Jeremy Lappen, CEO of CAMO, with the intent of delivering "comparative data" that regulators can use to determine whether or not the trial system -- Mixed Martial Arts Specific Scoring (MMAS) -- should eventually apply to the pros.

"We've used CAMO as a way of going about training officials," said CSAC executive officer George Dodd, "and this is the perfect place to test a half-point system because we can regulate it and evaluate how this system is working prior to us implementing or not implementing the program" for professionals (which would require a regulatory change).

The system, which includes using half points as well as putting increased emphasis on damage, striking and grappling, was developed by Nelson "Doc" Hamilton, a licensed judge and referee and one of the foremost authorities on MMA and regulatory issues.

Read entire article...

Half-point proposal

Hamilton proposes a scoring system based on breaking the scoring down to half-points, where a close round, a solid win, a dominant win and having the opponent on the verge of defeat could all be differentiated.

Under this system, if a fighter wins a round that’s difficult to call, it gets scored 10-9.5. When it’s clear that one fighter won the round, it’s 10-9. When a fighter dominates the round but doesn’t have his opponent in bad shape during the round, or if a fighter does major damage but the opponent gets a degree of offense in, that would be a 10-8.5. A 10-8 round or lower would be similar to how things are scored today.

“To a man, every judge I’ve spoken with favors this system,” Hamilton said. “The problem is you will start getting arguments about a 10-9 vs. a 10-8.5. Do we then go to quarter-points, or go like gymnastics with tenths of a point,” said Kizer, the executive director of the Nevada Athletic Commission.

Without question, this system will lead to more debates about scorecards from fans, but it could fine-tune final scores, to the point that the judges’ scores aren’t at odds with the person they feel won the fight.

Read entire article...

For further details Hamilton's system, click here.


12/2/10 9:47 PM
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brahmabull81
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Steps are being taken. Wherever this leads, this is good news.
12/2/10 9:50 PM
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pcuzz
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Good news, sports evolve and so should the judging. Even if this method fails at least it shows they are willing to try.
12/2/10 9:50 PM
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DanTheWolfman
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Interesting, you know I have been rooting for half point system, as many round would be indeed 10-9.5 and 10-8.5 IMO, had a thread a month ago on this
12/2/10 9:52 PM
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A Dingo Ate My Creepy
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 Something productive out of the CSAC?  I'm shocked.  Sounds like a good idea, we'll see how it pans out.  Certainly worth trying.
12/2/10 9:57 PM
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K-Dub-"T"
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 Sound promising, but Cali will find a way to fuck it up.

1/2 points better than nothing.


So... would ya'll give Rampage a 10-9.5 round 1 or 10-10?
12/2/10 9:58 PM
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ortman166
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Machida approves of this message... Lol Phone Post
12/2/10 10:04 PM
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DanTheWolfman
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While I do believe that not enough is factored currently with near Submissions or Catches, I disagree with the amount Doc wants............

"Near-Submissions:
When a submission is serious and threatening with the potential to end the contest but is
ultimately unsuccessful, it is a near-submission. A near-submission is to grappling what a
knockdown is to effective striking, and should carry the same weight in scoring. However, in
the present judging system it frequently goes unrecognized. This is unacceptable, and can be
rectified by having the referee make the determination that a near-submission has occurred
and then signaling this to the judges by raising one arm straight overhead and holding it until
the fighter taps-out or until the submission is terminated.
Supporting criteria for the referee's decision that"

Most Judges honestly do not know if a Sub is just an attempt, or if it is truly damaging....ie if it is an arm cranked so far behind the back it actually damages the shoulder or particularly hard to tell if a guillotine attempt was just something the fighter had to work out of or if he turned purple and barely got out.

Also, an attempted submission is somewhere between a small blow and a knockdown, a knockdown is a Serious thing and usually results in a 10-8 round if the fighter that got the knockdown is dominant. However, a Near Sub is not usually as damaging IMO, even though he is taking that kind of scoring from Shooto. Near Subs should have the REF raise one arm up with the C sign for Catch and point with the other arm towards the fighters/submission attempt. 1 Near Sub in a round is like a 10-9 IMO, 3 Near Subs....not half hearted attempts.....but Seriously came close to ending the fight is a 10-8 round IMO if all else is equal.
12/2/10 10:06 PM
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A Dingo Ate My Creepy
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 dumb question, but why not 5 judges.  And it'd be nice if we saw more retired fighters as judges. 
12/2/10 10:07 PM
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BJJkilla
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A Dingo Ate My Creepy -  dumb question, but why not 5 judges.  And it'd be nice if we saw more retired fighters as judges. 


adding more judges wouldn't really solve the problem imo
12/2/10 10:09 PM
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DanTheWolfman
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From my Post before almost 2 months ago on Sherk/Dunham fight is posted below..Also I live in Cali and would like to be a REF and a Judge, but when I talked to them a couple years ago they didn't have the money to process my paperwork due to financial situation here....Has this changed? Can I become a Judge and Ref now? I do have some experience

"Just rewatched this fight. I am a fan of Sherk btw. Decided to score with a half point system along the way. Only the 2nd Guillotine attempt by Dunham was very serious, I am surprised at the over excitement of the other guillotines when Sean was instantly passing into half-mount by stuffing the knee or no hand passing. Anyway, if MMA were to be on a half point system this is how I would have scored it. Perhaps using the half point system would lessen the over scoring of takedowns and wall humping.

Rd 1 Sherk 10 Dunham 9.5

Rd 2 Sherk 9 Dunham 10

Rd 3 Sherk 8.5 Dunham 10

Dunham 29.5 Sherk 27.5 . If you score for damage, for clean crosses, knees to the chin, and only partially blocked headkicks I think it is clear who did more damage. Wall humping with your head down is stupid, if a guy lands 8 elbows to the side of your head he is clearly winning that exchange/that position. Obviously we need better judges in MMA, but lately been going over some fights using a half-point system and it seems to narrow the gap in close rounds. Everyone knows that I believe being on top is always preferable, and top control is important. However, that should equal only a half point by itself until you land some elbows or posture up for big punches.

Also, going crazy just cause I guy squezes something or throws his leg up is not a damaging or near submission, the exact position and leverage is what matters. If it's a guillotine in full guard or a Kimura that is actually damaging the shoulder than the submission attempt should be a "Catch" or near submission and count for something in the scoring.

Go over some close fights and bad decisions and see if scoring on a half point system clears things up a bit. Three 5-min rounds is a lot more to blame too, with arbitrary standups but I guess that's what we have got. 5-three minute rounds with no standups would have made a lot of things better, as 1 takedown difference to lay and pray wouldn't have changed the outcome so often."
12/2/10 10:20 PM
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Brown Bride
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What will determine if the new scoring is a success?  Do they want to make sure the outcomes stay the same?  One of the major problems is nobody knows how each judge is counting a hook to the body vs a jab to the face or a takedown compared to a leg kick, its so arbitrary, not to mention it all comes down to what happens in the last minute, there are so many fights where 1 fighter is clearly winning a round for the first 4 minutes then the other fighter will land a couple hard shots at the end or get a takedown and maybe land one good shot on the ground or attempt a sub and the horn blows and the refs give the round to the guy on top.
12/2/10 10:25 PM
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DanTheWolfman
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By current Criteria 4 min of Advantage > then 1 min of Dominance........

However if 4 min is mostly close to being equal in the Sriking and 1 min of Dominance on the Ground then they are supposed to score for the Round stealer
12/2/10 10:28 PM
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BuddyRevell
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Edited: 12/03/10 12:33 AM
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pcuzz - Good news, sports evolve and so should the judging. Even if this method fails at least it shows they are willing to try.

 Well said. 

12/2/10 10:39 PM
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Nocturnal
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As long as they fix the td > * than I'll be content. Phone Post
12/3/10 12:33 AM
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BuddyRevell
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Here's a poll about the half point system vs. the current system. I'm wondering what everybody here prefers:
http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/ns/mma.cfm?go=forum_framed.posts&forum=1&thread=1736742&page=1&pc=5   
12/3/10 12:39 AM
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Brown Bride
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Nocturnal - 
As long as they fix the td > * than I'll be content. Phone Post



It could have the potential to thwart a lay & prayer, IF the other guy can win at least one round convincingly. If one guy gets a quick TD and basically does nothing for 2/3 rounds and wins them both 10-9.5, but the other guy manages to do well enough in one of the rounds to win 10-9 it would be a tie, if he earned a 10-8.5 in the one round then he'd get a W, of course it really all comes down are the judges going to be scared to award a 8.5 as they are an 8.
12/3/10 1:26 AM
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DanTheWolfman
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If I was judging would definitely be more inclined to give a 8.5 when an 8 isn't really warranted but knowing more damage than a 9 was dished out
12/3/10 1:35 AM
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K-Dub-"T"
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Rd 1 10 - 9.5 Rampage
Rd 2 10 - 9 Rampage
Rd 3 10 - 8.5 Machida

28.5 - 28.5 Draw.

(Unless Rd1 = 10 - 10....)
12/3/10 1:41 AM
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DanTheWolfman
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Rd 1 10-9.5 Machida or maybe 10-10 even
Rd 2 10-9 Rampage
Rd 3 10-8.5 Machida

Either Machida by .5 or Draw

And Remember I like Rampage
12/3/10 2:41 AM
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GriffinQ
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 I just wish it weren't California implementing this. They've proven their incompetence time and again, with the latest example being today during the hearing/meeting. Nevada should be the one implementing this first, but Kizer's a lazy bitch.
12/3/10 7:58 AM
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Flannerz
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Do you think a lot of the problems now are due to judges not scoring rounds as 10/10 ? It seems to me like in very close rounds people are trying to find the smallest reason for a fighter to win that round. If more round were scored 10/10, you might get a few more draws at first, but then fighters would try more to win rounds
12/3/10 8:59 AM
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mrgoodarmbar
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HOLY FUCKING IDIOTS!!!...How F-in dumb are these people!

1. Going to 1/2 points is NO different than going to a 20 point system

2. A 10 point system is just the equivalent of a 5pt system that uses 1/2 points.

3. They wouldn't need 1/2 points if regular rounds were scored 10-8 and ridiculously close rounds were scored 10-9.

Did these people fail 1st grade math? It's not the numbering that matters. It's the CRITERIA that needs changing.
12/3/10 9:11 AM
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Jitsbaby
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This still does not fix the root problem, which is incorrectly scoring rounds for who they think is or is not winning the fight based on the fact that they feel compelled to give the round to one of the two guys, rarely is a single round a draw.
So this 1/2 point system is just complicating the system already in place. They need to go away with the 10 point must period, and stop judging individual rounds because this is a fight not boxing, the winner of the fight should be the guy that inflicts the most damage as a whole, not in each round.

Example of possible problem with this system:
Even if rounds 1 and 2 are pretty much a stale mate, with the 10 point must you are still awarding a winner to each of those rounds.
So lets say rounds 1 and 2 are even, but fighter A moves forward a little more, judges score it
RD 1 10/9.5 for fighter A
RD 2 10/9.5 for fighter A

then round 3 is a clear but not dominating victory for fighter B
RD 3 10/9 for fighter B

The most damage was inflicted by fighter B as a whole, but he only did this in one of the 3 'fights'.
We now have a DRAW on the scoring cards, where fighter B should have won the fight since the first two rounds were a stalemate as far as damage goes.

My opinion on what the judging should be is very simple and very straight forward...
Judge the fight as a whole, instead of 3 separate rounds, and the criteria is as follows:
At the end of the fight, which guy would you rather be?
That guy wins.
12/3/10 9:11 AM
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A 21 Second BJ
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 LOL ... new rules, same shitty judges.

Getting rid of cecil peoples would be a much bigger step in the right direction.

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