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HolyGround >> Pastor Josh=Everything I hate about Christians


6/24/12 11:58 AM
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zealot66
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 Tell me pastor Josh, what evil sin am I committing? Why did I escape the death clutches of your christianity? It surely has to be some secret immorality that I desired that could now engage in. Oh, how I love being wickedly boring. 
6/24/12 7:30 PM
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Rocky Dennis
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 Excellent contribution
6/25/12 9:41 PM
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DyingBreed
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So so many Christians think about salvation as being saved from hell...when it is so much more than that Phone Post
6/25/12 9:47 PM
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BallaMMA
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Can I possibly get a background story? Phone Post
6/26/12 5:45 AM
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Ridgeback
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 I don't believe there is such a thing as "Christianity" in any meaningful way.  The sheer divergences among those who self-identify with the term "Christian" are so vast and so contradictory with each other, that calling them all the same thing is incoherent.  The truth is a man Yeshua Ben Josef lived in history and there have been many different responses to his life and teachings.  Some have much more serious pedigrees in terms of a traceable connection historically to the Apostles, while others either were deviations of those traditions, or deviations of deviations, or largely unrelated historical movements that happened to use some of the same language but mean very different things.  Of course this means that everything related to Jesus is a convoluted mess, but if you try to lump all of these things together under the banner of Christianity you really don't get an even remotely accurate picture of what is really going on.  

I think Pastor Josh and Rev. John simply hold to completely different religions, believe in and worship different Gods, and see the person Jesus in radically different ways.  They may share similiar religious texts, and possibly even some historical lineages, but they represent two distinct religions.  
6/26/12 7:17 PM
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BallaMMA
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Ridgeback -  I don't believe there is such a thing as "Christianity" in any meaningful way.  The sheer divergences among those who self-identify with the term "Christian" are so vast and so contradictory with each other, that calling them all the same thing is incoherent.  The truth is a man Yeshua Ben Josef lived in history and there have been many different responses to his life and teachings.  Some have much more serious pedigrees in terms of a traceable connection historically to the Apostles, while others either were deviations of those traditions, or deviations of deviations, or largely unrelated historical movements that happened to use some of the same language but mean very different things.  Of course this means that everything related to Jesus is a convoluted mess, but if you try to lump all of these things together under the banner of Christianity you really don't get an even remotely accurate picture of what is really going on.  

I think Pastor Josh and Rev. John simply hold to completely different religions, believe in and worship different Gods, and see the person Jesus in radically different ways.  They may share similiar religious texts, and possibly even some historical lineages, but they represent two distinct religions.  
Ridgeback, I have a question. Do you have any religious beliefs? Not meaning to hi jack thread, sorry Phone Post
6/27/12 7:40 PM
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reverend john
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yes, he of course follows the direct unpolluted stream directly from the apostles

rev
6/28/12 10:34 AM
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Ridgeback
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BallaMMA - 
Ridgeback -  I don't believe there is such a thing as "Christianity" in any meaningful way.  The sheer divergences among those who self-identify with the term "Christian" are so vast and so contradictory with each other, that calling them all the same thing is incoherent.  The truth is a man Yeshua Ben Josef lived in history and there have been many different responses to his life and teachings.  Some have much more serious pedigrees in terms of a traceable connection historically to the Apostles, while others either were deviations of those traditions, or deviations of deviations, or largely unrelated historical movements that happened to use some of the same language but mean very different things.  Of course this means that everything related to Jesus is a convoluted mess, but if you try to lump all of these things together under the banner of Christianity you really don't get an even remotely accurate picture of what is really going on.  

I think Pastor Josh and Rev. John simply hold to completely different religions, believe in and worship different Gods, and see the person Jesus in radically different ways.  They may share similiar religious texts, and possibly even some historical lineages, but they represent two distinct religions.  
Ridgeback, I have a question. Do you have any religious beliefs? Not meaning to hi jack thread, sorry Phone Post

 Yes.  Why do you ask?  I don't think I disparaged having beliefs.  I think I pointed out that people's beliefs are so divergent that using the same word to describe them makes no sense.
6/28/12 10:39 AM
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Ridgeback
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reverend john - yes, he of course follows the direct unpolluted stream directly from the apostles

rev

 I think I have been pretty honest about the failings of my own tradition but thanks for the personal attack.   It is much easier to have a "pristine" tradition when it is only about a hundred years old and you get to cherry pick who is part of it.  Speaking of which, I've decided to claim St. Francis of Assissi as Orthodox to make us look good.  
6/28/12 10:57 AM
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BallaMMA
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Ridgeback -
BallaMMA - 
Ridgeback -  I don't believe there is such a thing as "Christianity" in any meaningful way.  The sheer divergences among those who self-identify with the term "Christian" are so vast and so contradictory with each other, that calling them all the same thing is incoherent.  The truth is a man Yeshua Ben Josef lived in history and there have been many different responses to his life and teachings.  Some have much more serious pedigrees in terms of a traceable connection historically to the Apostles, while others either were deviations of those traditions, or deviations of deviations, or largely unrelated historical movements that happened to use some of the same language but mean very different things.  Of course this means that everything related to Jesus is a convoluted mess, but if you try to lump all of these things together under the banner of Christianity you really don't get an even remotely accurate picture of what is really going on.  

I think Pastor Josh and Rev. John simply hold to completely different religions, believe in and worship different Gods, and see the person Jesus in radically different ways.  They may share similiar religious texts, and possibly even some historical lineages, but they represent two distinct religions.  
Ridgeback, I have a question. Do you have any religious beliefs? Not meaning to hi jack thread, sorry Phone Post

 Yes.  Why do you ask?  I don't think I disparaged having beliefs.  I think I pointed out that people's beliefs are so divergent that using the same word to describe them makes no sense.
I ask because I have seen on numerous threads where you ask the anti-Christians to make an argument. So I always just thought you were Christian Phone Post
6/28/12 1:19 PM
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Ridgeback
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BallaMMA - 
Ridgeback -
BallaMMA - 
Ridgeback -  I don't believe there is such a thing as "Christianity" in any meaningful way.  The sheer divergences among those who self-identify with the term "Christian" are so vast and so contradictory with each other, that calling them all the same thing is incoherent.  The truth is a man Yeshua Ben Josef lived in history and there have been many different responses to his life and teachings.  Some have much more serious pedigrees in terms of a traceable connection historically to the Apostles, while others either were deviations of those traditions, or deviations of deviations, or largely unrelated historical movements that happened to use some of the same language but mean very different things.  Of course this means that everything related to Jesus is a convoluted mess, but if you try to lump all of these things together under the banner of Christianity you really don't get an even remotely accurate picture of what is really going on.  

I think Pastor Josh and Rev. John simply hold to completely different religions, believe in and worship different Gods, and see the person Jesus in radically different ways.  They may share similiar religious texts, and possibly even some historical lineages, but they represent two distinct religions.  
Ridgeback, I have a question. Do you have any religious beliefs? Not meaning to hi jack thread, sorry Phone Post

 Yes.  Why do you ask?  I don't think I disparaged having beliefs.  I think I pointed out that people's beliefs are so divergent that using the same word to describe them makes no sense.
I ask because I have seen on numerous threads where you ask the anti-Christians to make an argument. So I always just thought you were Christian Phone Post

 And again I am still not sure what it was about my post above that would make you think otherwise.  I am not trying to disparage any form of Christianity in that post but rather to point out that we need to acknowledge some serious differences among the groups of people who are all placed under the umbrella of "Christian."  This is more about the utility of the word and how it tends to mislead us since Fred Phelps and Mother Teresa are both called "Christian" but obviously working with very different beliefs and taking very different approaches to living out those beliefs.  


6/28/12 1:51 PM
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BallaMMA
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Ridgeback -
BallaMMA - 
Ridgeback -
BallaMMA - 
Ridgeback -  I don't believe there is such a thing as "Christianity" in any meaningful way.  The sheer divergences among those who self-identify with the term "Christian" are so vast and so contradictory with each other, that calling them all the same thing is incoherent.  The truth is a man Yeshua Ben Josef lived in history and there have been many different responses to his life and teachings.  Some have much more serious pedigrees in terms of a traceable connection historically to the Apostles, while others either were deviations of those traditions, or deviations of deviations, or largely unrelated historical movements that happened to use some of the same language but mean very different things.  Of course this means that everything related to Jesus is a convoluted mess, but if you try to lump all of these things together under the banner of Christianity you really don't get an even remotely accurate picture of what is really going on.  

I think Pastor Josh and Rev. John simply hold to completely different religions, believe in and worship different Gods, and see the person Jesus in radically different ways.  They may share similiar religious texts, and possibly even some historical lineages, but they represent two distinct religions.  
Ridgeback, I have a question. Do you have any religious beliefs? Not meaning to hi jack thread, sorry Phone Post

 Yes.  Why do you ask?  I don't think I disparaged having beliefs.  I think I pointed out that people's beliefs are so divergent that using the same word to describe them makes no sense.
I ask because I have seen on numerous threads where you ask the anti-Christians to make an argument. So I always just thought you were Christian Phone Post

 And again I am still not sure what it was about my post above that would make you think otherwise.  I am not trying to disparage any form of Christianity in that post but rather to point out that we need to acknowledge some serious differences among the groups of people who are all placed under the umbrella of "Christian."  This is more about the utility of the word and how it tends to mislead us since Fred Phelps and Mother Teresa are both called "Christian" but obviously working with very different beliefs and taking very different approaches to living out those beliefs.  


I was not asking based off of your post just quoting to reply. Just wanted to know because in many other threads it seems you are pro-religion. But you never Identified yourself with either side. Phone Post
6/28/12 2:34 PM
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reverend john
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Is it a personal attack? Thought that is what you believed and say over and over again

Is that not what you believe? Are you not the true apostolic tradition?

Rev Phone Post
6/28/12 2:42 PM
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Ali
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Speaking of perceived attacks.... I used to be confused about having been called "antiChristian" based on posts that were anything-but. Now I'm more confused about how the term antiChristian might mean something if the term Christian doesn't.
6/28/12 3:00 PM
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DyingBreed
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Ali - Speaking of perceived attacks.... I used to be confused about having been called "antiChristian" based on posts that were anything-but. Now I'm more confused about how the term antiChristian might mean something if the term Christian doesn't.
Hmm...food for thought Phone Post
6/28/12 4:53 PM
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Ridgeback
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BallaMMA - 
Ridgeback -
BallaMMA - 
Ridgeback -
BallaMMA - 
Ridgeback -  I don't believe there is such a thing as "Christianity" in any meaningful way.  The sheer divergences among those who self-identify with the term "Christian" are so vast and so contradictory with each other, that calling them all the same thing is incoherent.  The truth is a man Yeshua Ben Josef lived in history and there have been many different responses to his life and teachings.  Some have much more serious pedigrees in terms of a traceable connection historically to the Apostles, while others either were deviations of those traditions, or deviations of deviations, or largely unrelated historical movements that happened to use some of the same language but mean very different things.  Of course this means that everything related to Jesus is a convoluted mess, but if you try to lump all of these things together under the banner of Christianity you really don't get an even remotely accurate picture of what is really going on.  

I think Pastor Josh and Rev. John simply hold to completely different religions, believe in and worship different Gods, and see the person Jesus in radically different ways.  They may share similiar religious texts, and possibly even some historical lineages, but they represent two distinct religions.  
Ridgeback, I have a question. Do you have any religious beliefs? Not meaning to hi jack thread, sorry Phone Post

 Yes.  Why do you ask?  I don't think I disparaged having beliefs.  I think I pointed out that people's beliefs are so divergent that using the same word to describe them makes no sense.
I ask because I have seen on numerous threads where you ask the anti-Christians to make an argument. So I always just thought you were Christian Phone Post

 And again I am still not sure what it was about my post above that would make you think otherwise.  I am not trying to disparage any form of Christianity in that post but rather to point out that we need to acknowledge some serious differences among the groups of people who are all placed under the umbrella of "Christian."  This is more about the utility of the word and how it tends to mislead us since Fred Phelps and Mother Teresa are both called "Christian" but obviously working with very different beliefs and taking very different approaches to living out those beliefs.  


I was not asking based off of your post just quoting to reply. Just wanted to know because in many other threads it seems you are pro-religion. But you never Identified yourself with either side. Phone Post

 Ahh Okay.  I am Eastern Orthodox.  I don't consider myself pro-religion or anti-religion since I take it for granted that all humans are religious and there is a lot of "bad" religion in the world.  
6/28/12 4:56 PM
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Ridgeback
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reverend john -  Is it a personal attack? Thought that is what you believed and say over and over again

Is that not what you believe? Are you not the true apostolic tradition?

Rev Phone Post

 I've noticed you don't take much time to understand traditions outside your own since you certainly don't appear to understand what Apostolic Succession means in practical terms.   Even so, you claim the authority of primitive Christianity for your own movement, essentially arguing that almost all of what is called Christianity is really just slavery to the powers by another name and that your tradition is the most correct understanding of Jesus.  You would be an idiot if you were following a way of life you thought was the least correct one so I don't fault you.  But my post really had nothing to do with making a case for which tradition most accurately reflected what Jesus taught and what he wanted for his Church. It was really a matter of pointing out that there is so much divergence under that umbrella term that it really isn't helpful to lump all people who self-identify as Christian together. 
6/28/12 4:59 PM
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Ridgeback
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Ali - Speaking of perceived attacks.... I used to be confused about having been called "antiChristian" based on posts that were anything-but. Now I'm more confused about how the term antiChristian might mean something if the term Christian doesn't.

 It isn't a perceived attack.  He is bitter and sarcastic towards me all the time.  You are coming in on the end of a very long conversation and have no idea.

Yes I use imperfect terms all the time.  That doesnt' mean I don't see the near worthlessness of the word Christian.  It would have been more accurate to call you anti- (insert specific response to the life and teachings of Jesus here).  My thoughts on the term "Christianity" have evolved over time.  I have certainly used it in a generic sense in the past for lack of a better word, but more and more I find it to be less-than-useful for accurate communication.
6/28/12 5:25 PM
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zealot66
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 Herein lies the evidence for my assertion that every 'christian' believes they are right and others are wrong. You don't live and partake in a doctrine or church if you don't believe it to be the most valid. And the finale is 'who's right? They both cant be'. ERGO, no one knows much of anything for sure.........
6/28/12 6:43 PM
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reverend john
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Perhaps you are ignorant of my background Ridgeback, but I was raised Roman Catholic, I was schooled in Church history, Morality, Old and New Testament and Doctrine. I was not only required to take the classes but was required to pass them with a high average in order to graduate. I am very well acquainted with apostolic succession. I am also acquainted with the fact that some of these successors were behind horrible atrocities like exhuming the corpse of the previous pope and putting him on trial for heresy, finding his corpse guilty and taking him out of the church burial grounds. Priests from apostolic succession molesting and raping children and their leaders covering it up. And I am sure you know I can go on and on.

You made a statement that said basically, "there are some churches that have stuck to apostolic succession, (can't help but think of helio's pure stream) and others are DEVIATIONS, or DEVIATIONS OF DEVIATIONS" Perhaps you are unaware of how that makes your church sound as compared to those Deviant ones.

As to my own tradition, there ere many different and diverse groups believing many different and diverse things, but live the way I see the early church doing, including many Catholics like the Catholic Worker communities. I tell people what I believe to be true, why the hell would I say otherwise. But I don't pretend that I am right about everything, not my church. I am probably going to change my mind about something in the next six months, I normally do.

But when you say on another thread that its ironic because I am a Christian anarchist and espouse liberation theology, I don't see that as an attack. That is the truth.

As to my own personal sarcasm towards you... well, I basically think you treat people like shit, you condescend and ridicule. Perhaps you think the same of me.

The interesting thing is I found orthodox religion to be one of the most compelling and together of those I looked at. I still agree with many of their teachings at least in part, and I like much about them. The orthodox people I know are warm and humble and gracious people.

rev
6/28/12 7:24 PM
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Ali
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Edited: 06/28/12 8:51 PM
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Ridge - I am guessing you have bigger fish to fry in this thread, and right now I'm not at a real keyboard, so for these and other reasons I won't parse your response to me in detail. But I can't tell if you're simply mistaken in a variety of ways or if you're really dishonest. I think the benefit of the doubt should make me lean toward the former. But I think you're at least a pretty bright guy, which makes that more difficult.
6/29/12 10:50 AM
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Ridgeback
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Anyway, personal attacks aside, my point was that Fred Phelps, the Mormons, Independent Fundamentalist Baptists, Roman Catholics, Christian Anarchists, and Shakers are all called "Christian" and that is a problem since they believe and practice some radically different things and describe their gods in radically different ways.  

My point was that instead of being surprised at the sheer differences in belief and practice between Pastor Joh and the  Rev, if we started with the premise that they have different religions it would make sense why they are so different on here in terms of where they are coming from, and why they are almost always talking past each other.
6/29/12 10:51 AM
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JitsuGuy
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DyingBreed - So so many Christians think about salvation as being saved from hell...when it is so much more than that <img src="/images/phone/apple.png" alt="Phone Post" border="0" style="vertical-align:middle;"/>


Because hell is a myth.... But yeah, I'm not really sure what salvation is but everyone gets it at some point according to scripture.
6/29/12 5:27 PM
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Ali
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I think there's no surprise at allthe about the differences in belief and practice between pastor josh and rev, sheer or otherwise.
6/29/12 9:04 PM
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Ridgeback
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Ali - I think there's no surprise at allthe about the differences in belief and practice between pastor josh and rev, sheer or otherwise.

 Not sure if that is directed at me, but if so you can't imagine how little I care what you think.  Maybe you can do haiku at the Rev's church while you simultaneously mock what people hold dear.  

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