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UnderGround Forums >> White fed up with fighters turning down bouts


11/20/12 12:49 PM
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SinCityHustler
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SinCityHustler - I call mine Moby, so what?



You named your penis after a small, squirrelly looking guy?

No I didn't name it, one of my girls back in high school did and it caught on.  I decided to keep the name and I've had it ever since.  She never did explain about the small squirrly guy, just kept referring to it as Moby Dick.  She thought it was so clever, would laugh her ass off every time she called it that.    

11/20/12 1:07 PM
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Pyrenus
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Edited: 11/20/12 1:09 PM
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Maybe they should start publishing their names when a fighter turns down a fight. A little public humiliation might be a good incentive.

Edit: This would likely also have effects on a fighter's sponsorships.
11/20/12 1:09 PM
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SinCityHustler
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GeraldHares - 

Take it from a fighter that in some cases turning down fights is not a cowardly thing. Unless you are already in shape - you can't expect a guy to risk his career on a short notice bout when he's not prepared. THE RISK OUTWEIGH THE REWARD and we have all seen cases of guys being "cut" or ruined by short notice fights. The only benefit for winning a short notice fight is having extra money in your bank account & advancing in the division. The risk....well losing is terrible, because regardless if your 3-0 or 0-3 no one is safe. You get half your money, possibly injured, suspended, embarrased, and could lose your job in your next bout with a loss (some guys have a clause where they can't be cut after a short notice bout) So to tell a guy your a fighter - you should always be ready to fight comes from people who have never competed at that level. Try telling a Doctor to alway be prepared to perform surgery and he will probably tell you to kiss his ass. Anything competitive at such a high level needs the proper preparation & confidence to go in there. Damn the loss, you could be seriously injured by going in there not %100. The next time you decide to tell a fighter to "take a fight" try being locked in a cage with another man for 15 minutes where his tank is full and yours is half empty & see what happens.

Oh yea - on the other hand - if your in shape and you don't take a fight - then that is a true example of BITCHASSNESS! I would never turn down a fight that I felt I was physically/mentally ready for.


Agree with this post and I'll add a couple of things and ask a couple of questions.  First of all, shouldn't the fighter be in shape and although not at peak shape, in fight shape none the less in case his name gets called up?   I think the fighter should want to be in shape and live that lifestyle, as many do.  Many of the short notice fights are at least a month notice if not longer and in the event that the fight is closer, generally guys are being asked to step in that are training for other fights anyways.  I don't see this as a big problem, where others are saying they need the full camp in order to get ready for the specific opponennt.  But if the specific opponent doesn't have additional time to get ready either, that seems like a wash to me.  Perhaps I'm biased because I'm from an era where you didn't get months to prepare for your fight, rather often times you found out who you were fighting at the fighter meeting the day prior to the fight or the day of.  It was your responsibility to show up in shape, ready to go.  thecobra here Gerald, thanks for the reply and hope to see you in the big show soon.  

 

11/20/12 1:12 PM
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MattyJ
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Dana has a point when it comes to people like Jon Jones turning down a replacement fight when he was in fight shape and against a lighter opponent who hasn't trained etc,
but as many others have said when the stakes are so high and there seems to be no allowances for losing in a short notice fight he really can't blame people for not doing him a favour when their whole career might go down the pan if they lose. Phone Post
11/20/12 1:12 PM
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Hungry4Stink
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Bed meet bedmaker


Exactly. Things change if Zuffa makes them employees instead of independent contractors, but Zuffa is not willing to do that.
11/20/12 1:15 PM
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UGCTT_I Got Fitched Up
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Maybe Dana is missing the part where fighters want to be PAID EXTRA for stepping up on short notice. Many of them might be saying no because they want more money.... Phone Post
11/20/12 1:19 PM
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JimmersonzGlove
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So Dana misses the Pride days too, eh?

11/20/12 2:12 PM
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PrestigeWorldwide
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Ronin_jutsuka - Think that people would be more likely to take that short-notice fight if it didn't mean getting cut after 2 consecutive losses? Phone Post
Correct answer! Phone Post

You think the guys getting cut after stepping up weren't already on the verge of getting cut?

People are looking at this as the fighter doing the UFC a favor so the UFC should owe them. The reality is that the UFC is the top dog so unless you're already in a position not to be cut, the UFC is doing you a favor by even offering the fight.

The guy that mentioned pride before. Yeah they didn't cut fighters for losing because they weren't in a position to. They didn't have a near monopoly they could sit on and pick and choose at their leisure. It had nothing to do with budo and everything to do with business and entertainment.

It seems crazy to offer guaranteed fight extensions for guys that take fights on short notice. Particularly when there are probably tons of fighter on the same level that would be willing to take the fight.

It's not just fighters on the verge of getting cut though. Look at Kongo and Mitrione. Both have turned down fights and are not fighters the UFC will cut after a short-notice loss.

The problem there is that they don't want to risk their line in title contention. A loss sends them to the far back of the line and also shoots them down on the main card or prelims.
11/20/12 2:22 PM
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Ludelow
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Ludelow - Not a single fighter wants the Bonnar treatment!

Meaning the 'he'll always have a job here' treatment, or the 'short notice didn't give me enough time to cycle off PEDs" treatment?


after he tested positive he lost it all, a nice retirement, his commentary job, hell, even dana does not want to talk to him, dana is afraid to pick up his cell?

well, so for the rewards of taking a fight on short notice to save a card!
11/20/12 2:28 PM
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Steven S
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I am fed up with Dana taling to/about fighters the way he does. The man hasn't fought before and his bullshit bullying tactics the way he talks to them is absurd. He has no class.

11/20/12 2:33 PM
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JerodR
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When fighting is how you feed your family you are going to take fights that make sense for you, and give you time to be ready. I know it sucks but Dana has to understand that these people are just trying to protect their future. They don't want to be the next guy sent packing because they had a sub par performance.
11/20/12 2:48 PM
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Vitor29
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MasterofMartialArts - I'm one guy who strongly believes in guys fighting who is in front of them. Recently this has been a growing trend with more guys on the roster, more events, and more injuries. The only time I would justify turning down a fight is for an injury. Not that I'm in the fight business or that I'm important, but I have tremendous respect for guys that fight anybody that's offered. Guys that say "whatever my boss asks of me, I will do". It's a really a simple, moral value. Phone Post
It's an idiotic moral value if you know that by taking that fight and losing you are jeopardizing your career. Phone Post
11/20/12 3:21 PM
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Andy Rigg
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if the fighters are all independent contracters, isn't this simply a case of picking which jobs they want? if i'm a pilot who has just finished a contract, do i take the first job that comes along next? or do i wait for one that i like the look of? if i refuse to take the ethiopia-nigeria long haul, for no extra money, would i then be asked 'do i want to be a fucking pilot?'
11/20/12 3:27 PM
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Kenso
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MarcusRenatoBrownBelt - Dana White was a good boxer. He did not have the physical talent to compete and be the best, so he got out of the sport that he loved. It was an admirable decision on Mr. White's part. Now, Dana White uses his fight knowledge and his boxing past and applies it to MMA. It's great that the fighters have another fighter who has been in the ring and knows what it feels like to hit and get hit.

if anyone can criticize a fighter for not taking a shor notice fight, it is Dana White. What is wrong with these fighters nowadays? They need to just hand over their career path to Dana White. Just put it all in his hands. He is the President and Leader of the UFC. He won't do anything to harm you . Stepping up worked great for Ben Saunders and DeMarques Johnson. Yeah, they were cut, but Mr. White will bring them back when the time is right.

Hi Dana!
11/20/12 3:28 PM
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Ludelow
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Ludelow - 
DanEzra - 
Ludelow - Not a single fighter wants the Bonnar treatment!

Meaning the 'he'll always have a job here' treatment, or the 'short notice didn't give me enough time to cycle off PEDs" treatment?


after he tested positive he lost it all, a nice retirement, his commentary job, hell, even dana does not want to talk to him, dana is afraid to pick up his cell?

well, so for the rewards of taking a fight on short notice to save a card!

Did you not read the part of your statement that says "after he tested positive?" Taking the fight on short notice and losing has nothing to do with Dana's current attitude toward Bonnar. He is pissed because he was caught using banned substances. Again.

He used a cutting agent, to make 205 in a short amount of time.
he was not pissed about bonnar because of the failed test, but because bonnar failed to tell him about it.
sounds strange? like it is common practice to inform the boss of the UFC, you're on the PEDS.
11/20/12 3:32 PM
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Vitor29
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MasterofMartialArts - I'm one guy who strongly believes in guys fighting who is in front of them. Recently this has been a growing trend with more guys on the roster, more events, and more injuries. The only time I would justify turning down a fight is for an injury. Not that I'm in the fight business or that I'm important, but I have tremendous respect for guys that fight anybody that's offered. Guys that say "whatever my boss asks of me, I will do". It's a really a simple, moral value. Phone Post
It's an idiotic moral value if you know that by taking that fight and losing you are jeopardizing your career. Phone Post

You are also jeopardizing your career by not taking the fight. Works both ways. Your career can be made or broken by the matchmaker, probably a better idea to take a chance with a potential loss then risk getting on his bad side.


Hmmm, let's see, take a fight on short notice thereby decreasing your chances to win or take a fight with ample notice thereby increasing your chances to win? With a win you WILL NOT be cut, with a loss you are a step closer to being cut. You don't get special credit for taking a fight on short notice and losing, it's basically "thanks for the favour, but don't expect one in return so pack your bags".
11/20/12 3:47 PM
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mmamathwiz
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Mr Jackson - When i hear this argument i think about a guy like chris lytle that did not win every fight but put it all on the line . and was loved win or loose

zuffa does not get rid of the guys that truly come to fight


Lytle is the exception not the rule. If the fighters knew they would all get treated like Chris more people would step up for risky fights.
11/20/12 3:48 PM
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Delightone
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If they give the guy coming in at short notice a 100% follow up fight.
The fighters wouldnt bail on them like now Phone Post
11/20/12 4:23 PM
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BlueOnBlack
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If we are truly going to classify MMA/UFC as a sport alongside the NFL, NBA, etc. then it needs to be treated as such. This notion of a "you're either fighters or you're not" seems more like something you'd throw out during the Tank Abbot era. Sure, they are fighters but they are professional athletes first, fighting in the largest fight organization in the world.

I think this is more a reaction to so many fighters pulling out with injuries than it is to the UFC not having people who will step up on short notice. As a fan it's certainly frustrating so I can't even imagine what it would be like if it were my job!
11/20/12 4:27 PM
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GeraldHares
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SinCityHustler - 
GeraldHares - 

Take it from a fighter that in some cases turning down fights is not a cowardly thing. Unless you are already in shape - you can't expect a guy to risk his career on a short notice bout when he's not prepared. THE RISK OUTWEIGH THE REWARD and we have all seen cases of guys being "cut" or ruined by short notice fights. The only benefit for winning a short notice fight is having extra money in your bank account & advancing in the division. The risk....well losing is terrible, because regardless if your 3-0 or 0-3 no one is safe. You get half your money, possibly injured, suspended, embarrased, and could lose your job in your next bout with a loss (some guys have a clause where they can't be cut after a short notice bout) So to tell a guy your a fighter - you should always be ready to fight comes from people who have never competed at that level. Try telling a Doctor to alway be prepared to perform surgery and he will probably tell you to kiss his ass. Anything competitive at such a high level needs the proper preparation & confidence to go in there. Damn the loss, you could be seriously injured by going in there not %100. The next time you decide to tell a fighter to "take a fight" try being locked in a cage with another man for 15 minutes where his tank is full and yours is half empty & see what happens.

Oh yea - on the other hand - if your in shape and you don't take a fight - then that is a true example of BITCHASSNESS! I would never turn down a fight that I felt I was physically/mentally ready for.


Agree with this post and I'll add a couple of things and ask a couple of questions.  First of all, shouldn't the fighter be in shape and although not at peak shape, in fight shape none the less in case his name gets called up?   I think the fighter should want to be in shape and live that lifestyle, as many do.  Many of the short notice fights are at least a month notice if not longer and in the event that the fight is closer, generally guys are being asked to step in that are training for other fights anyways.  I don't see this as a big problem, where others are saying they need the full camp in order to get ready for the specific opponennt.  But if the specific opponent doesn't have additional time to get ready either, that seems like a wash to me.  Perhaps I'm biased because I'm from an era where you didn't get months to prepare for your fight, rather often times you found out who you were fighting at the fighter meeting the day prior to the fight or the day of.  It was your responsibility to show up in shape, ready to go.  thecobra here Gerald, thanks for the reply and hope to see you in the big show soon.  

 


Fighting is not like a team sport - where you compete every weekend or every few days. Who cares if the Lakers lose 3 games in a row or the Saints are 0-4 - they only care about peaking at the right time & getting to the playoffs. In MMA every fight is the playoffs - with that being said - we are not ready for this type of competition all the time - it takes 6-8 weeks of preperation. I couldn't imagine a guy taking a 5 round fight out of shape. He could possible die from exaustion competing against the best in the world. I've taken my share fair of short notice bouts, but only because  I was training for another fight. 

Other than that it comes to loyalty - how can you expect fighters to take short notice bouts to "help" the organization when they are quick to shit on your for losing, not making weight, or looking bad. Fighters like me take short notice fight to hopefully impress our boss & build some credit. In my case I took a few short notice fights - won all by knockout, made it on ESPN, 2-KOTN awards, but I took one boring ass whoopin and I was gone. Life isn't fait but I'm not a fucking race horse that you shoot when his leg is broken. I'm a man with a family to feed. Does that cross my mind when I'm losing a fight? Yes, but I did give it everything I had - When the world of MMA stops worrying about peoples "jobs" then fighters will commit more. A 6-fight contract shoud be six damn fights regardless of how you do. Unless you fail a drug test, cheat, or violate some rules. Having a bad fight should not be punished harder than a guy who uses horse piss to pass a drug test.

Does that answer your question?

11/20/12 4:42 PM
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SinCityHustler
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^^^It does, thanks for your responseGerald.  

I don't think anyone expects an out of shape guy to take a 5 round fight.  The fact that Chael did it is major props to him.  The fact that Bones wouldn't take it even though he was the bigger and better fighter, and was already peaking for the fight is what many have problems with.  

11/20/12 4:49 PM
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6ULDV8
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McCorkle made a great post about this a while back, but I forget exactly what he said.

 

Something about a guarantee or something.  

 

Anyway, I remember he made a great point right after Mittrione turned down a fight.

11/20/12 4:50 PM
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ABE FROMAN
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SinCityHustler - 

^^^It does, thanks for your responseGerald.  

I don't think anyone expects an out of shape guy to take a 5 round fight.  The fact that Chael did it is major props to him.  The fact that Bones wouldn't take it even though he was the bigger and better fighter, and was already peaking for the fight is what many have problems with.  


Agreed on Bones.

The Gerald thing has always bothered me though. He's the poster child for unfairness imo.

They canned him while he was trying to do right by the UFC.

 

11/20/12 4:50 PM
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SinCityHustler
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MasterofMartialArts - I'm one guy who strongly believes in guys fighting who is in front of them. Recently this has been a growing trend with more guys on the roster, more events, and more injuries. The only time I would justify turning down a fight is for an injury. Not that I'm in the fight business or that I'm important, but I have tremendous respect for guys that fight anybody that's offered. Guys that say "whatever my boss asks of me, I will do". It's a really a simple, moral value. Phone Post
It's an idiotic moral value if you know that by taking that fight and losing you are jeopardizing your career. Phone Post

You are also jeopardizing your career by not taking the fight. Works both ways. Your career can be made or broken by the matchmaker, probably a better idea to take a chance with a potential loss then risk getting on his bad side.


Hmmm, let's see, take a fight on short notice thereby decreasing your chances to win or take a fight with ample notice thereby increasing your chances to win? With a win you WILL NOT be cut, with a loss you are a step closer to being cut. You don't get special credit for taking a fight on short notice and losing, it's basically "thanks for the favour, but don't expect one in return so pack your bags".

How are your chances any bettter one way or the other if your opponnet has the same notice that you have?  

Scenario1:You're going to fight Meathead.  You're given 2 months to prepare and so is he.  

Scenario 2: Both you and Mitrione are sitting in the stands and you're called out to fight him at a moment's notice.  He doens't even know who you are.  

Under which scenario are your chances better?  

11/20/12 4:53 PM
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SinCityHustler
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SinCityHustler - 

^^^It does, thanks for your responseGerald.  

I don't think anyone expects an out of shape guy to take a 5 round fight.  The fact that Chael did it is major props to him.  The fact that Bones wouldn't take it even though he was the bigger and better fighter, and was already peaking for the fight is what many have problems with.  


Agreed on Bones.

The Gerald thing has always bothered me though. He's the poster child for unfairness imo.

They canned him while he was trying to do right by the UFC.

 


Was that a short notice fight for Gerald?  I certainly wasn't happy with him being released but I didn't realize he had stepped up on short notice for that fight.  


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