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UnderGround Forums >> Elite tier of strikers in MMA?


1/28/13 1:09 AM
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orcus
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"All those gifs show is that Overeem obviously didn't respect Werdum's stand up, and those gifs show why."

Yeah, you always backpedal across the ring as fast as you can when a guy whose standup you don't respect at all is throwing punches at you. Not respecting standup = Anderson vs Okami or Bonnar. Not Overeem vs Werdum.

What the gifs show is, just one fight ago, the guy that some are putting forth as God Tier Striking standing around flat-footed and getting repeatedly one-twoed by a guy who looks slow and crappy, and even being driven across the ring by him.

"If you think Werdum's stand up vs Overeem was the same stand up Werdum used against Russow and Roy Nelson, I don't know what to tell you.  "

So what you're saying is Werdum looked worse than usual that night and yet still managed to repeatedly one-two Overeem right in his God Tier face and chase him across the ring with no devastating counter forthcoming from the Reem.

"How do you think Nate Quarry looked against Kalib Starnes?"

Hmm. Nate chased a fleeing opponent. Werdum chased a fleeing opponent and tagged him multiple times with crap strikes. Are you trying to say Quarry looked like shit against Kalib? Because the only one who looked bad in that fight was Starnes.

"Why do you think Overeem was awarded as the unanimous winner in his fight with Werdum?"

Beats me.  It's hilarious that you're implying that Overeem must have done something right because the judges -- MMA's infamous judges -- gave him the win.

Fightmetric in fact has Werdum winning under both the 10-point must system AND their own system, and -- unsurprisingly -- also landing more strikes (both significant and otherwise) than Overeem: http://blog.fightmetric.com/2011/06/overeem-vs-werdum-ii-official.html . What do you make of that?

 

"But Orcus, lets get down to brass tax. Since you give Overeem zero credit, how about we do a sig bet, I got Overeem, and you got JDS.  You tucked on this bet before, and my guess is you'll tuck again. If that fight is made, what do you say about being confident to bet on a striker against Overeem in mma?"

It's brass "tacks". How can I tuck on a bet I never offered? And do you see me putting JDS's name forth here? In any case Overeem will probably take him down just like he did Buentello and Rogers and Kharitonov and Crocop, i.e., basically every actual striker he's beaten in MMA. 

"i cannot believe u took the time to make gifs of all that extremely mediocre technique."

I didn't make them, and they are showing the absurdity of putting Overeem in the class of Aldo, Anderson, and Pettis at this time.

1/28/13 1:46 AM
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aka_rtotheoh
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carlos condit. perfect example of 8 limbs Phone Post
1/28/13 2:03 AM
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D241
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Edited: 01/28/13 2:04 AM
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orcus - 

"If you think Werdum's stand up vs Overeem was the same stand up Werdum used against Russow and Roy Nelson, I don't know what to tell you.  "

So what you're saying is Werdum looked worse than usual that night and yet still managed to repeatedly one-two Overeem right in his God Tier face and chase him across the ring with no devastating counter forthcoming from the Reem.

 

I dunno orcus, maybe you're right. Maybe those 4 gifs you posted with an Agenda just paints the whole picture of the fight. 
 

 
orcus - Are you trying to say Quarry looked like shit against Kalib? Because the only one who looked bad in that fight was Starnes.
I double dog, no scratch that, I triple dog DARE YOU to make an argument as to why the same could NOT be said substituting Overeem for Quarry and Kalib for Werdum.
 

 
orcus -  It's hilarious that you're implying that Overeem must have done something right because the judges -- MMA's infamous judges -- gave him the win.

Fightmetric in fact has Werdum winning under both the 10-point must system AND their own system, and -- unsurprisingly -- also landing more strikes (both significant and otherwise) than Overeem:  What do you make of that?

Like I said, I WAS THERE LIVE. I don't need a computer with obvious glitches to dictate how I judge a fight. 
Let me ask you straight up since you haven't said so, Who do you think won the fight between Overeem and Werdum in Strikeforce?
 

 
orcus - 

 

"But Orcus, lets get down to brass tax. Since you give Overeem zero credit, how about we do a sig bet, I got Overeem, and you got JDS.  You tucked on this bet before, and my guess is you'll tuck again. If that fight is made, what do you say about being confident to bet on a striker against Overeem in mma?"

 How can I tuck on a bet I never offered?

Easy, you can tuck on a bet that was offered to you. You've done it twice now. Is there any heavyweight who you think their stand up is better than Alistair that you're willing to sig bet me on?
1/28/13 2:19 AM
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wreckker
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Overeem did look shitty against werdum....

Werdum didn't hurt him but it wasn't a good performance by overeem

Overeems other fights in last fewyears between k-1 and Mma have shown his scary power and hulk smash ability.

Anderson looked shitty against Maia Phone Post
1/28/13 2:29 AM
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D241
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wreckker -  Overeem did look shitty against werdum....

Werdum didn't hurt him but it wasn't a good performance by overeem

Overeems other fights in last fewyears between k-1 and Mma have shown his scary power and hulk smash ability.

Anderson looked shitty against Maia Phone Post
 

I wasn't going to play that card just yet, but obviously you see orcus' mistake of using the Werdum fight as his basis for Overeem not being a bad ass great striker.
1/28/13 2:38 AM
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orcus
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Edited: 01/28/13 2:52 AM
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"I double dog, no scratch that, I triple dog DARE YOU to make an argument as to why the same could NOT be said substituting Overeem for Quarry and Kalib for Werdum."

Well, let's see, let me think if I can think of ways Overeem/Quarry comparison does not work: Quarry did not retreat from Kalib, nor did Kalib repeatedly land strikes to the face of Quarry, nor did anyone ever at any point suggest Quarry might be one of the most dazzling strikers in the sport. I'm having trouble figuring out just how I'm supposed to see any similarity between the two fights or any of the four fighters.

"I don't need a computer with obvious glitches to dictate how I judge a fight. "

What's the glitch in this instance?

"Let me ask you straight up since you haven't said so, Who do you think won the fight between Overeem and Werdum in Strikeforce?"

I've only watched it the one time. Iirc, I thought Werdum won but expected the judges to pick Overeem.

"Easy, you can tuck on a bet that was offered to you. You've done it twice now. Is there any heavyweight who you think their stand up is better than Alistair that you're willing to sig bet me on?"

I don't know whose standup is better than Alistair's because I haven't seen Alistair beat anyone good standing in MMA yet, so I have no yardstick of his ability; I've been saying for years that Alistair SHOULD be the best in the world in MMA, but has yet to prove he can live up to his potential. In any case, even if he does eventually prove himself the best striker at HW, that doesn't put him in the tier of the trio in the OP. Similarly, I didn't include any welterweights because I couldn't think of any who met the description either. 

Bottom line is absolutely nobody is putting Alistair in the discussion for anything he has done in MMA, which is funny because that's what the thread is about. He got kTFO by Chuck standing, TKO'd by Rogerio standing IIRC, got KTFO by Kharitonov standing while running away; he made little to no attempt to stand with Buentello or Rogers and took them down to win on the ground; he subbed Igor with iirc no striking exchanges; he did outstrike Vitor in their first fight at least but won on the ground (I think the rematch was mostly ground-based but I never saw it). His few impressive standup performances in MMA *at all* were basically brute force wins over really overmatched opponents in the last couple years.

P.S.. No, turning down a bet you never proposed is not dicktucking, because you never waved your dick around that in the first place. 

"Anderson looked shitty against Maia"

That would be a vastly better example of "not respecting the opponent" than Werdum/Overeem. It was a truly bizarre and ugly fight, but Anderson spent most of it flat-out clowning Maia and playing games with him:

 

 

An anomalous fight that has people to this day wondering what on earth Anderson was doing that night several years ago; yet in which he still displayed flashes of brilliance, creativity, and a stunning lack of respect for his opponent.

1/28/13 3:03 AM
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MasterofMartialArts
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Anderson
Aldo
Pettis
Machida
Jones

There are lots of elite strikers that are NOT considered head and shoulders above the rest of their division, not sure if you wanted to talk about those. I will say this though-Aldo's striking defense is not as great as it may seem. He gets hit, in fact, he gets hit quite often. Look at his fights against Florian and Hominick, I actually thought Florian outstruck him in round one (has been a while so I need to re watch). His speed is something that is incredible, and the accuracy of his punches and power on his kicks is astounding. His left/right/headkick combination is one of the most brutal combinations in MMA, and his leg kicks, well just ask Urijah. Phone Post
1/28/13 3:11 AM
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orcus
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"There are lots of elite strikers that are NOT considered head and shoulders above the rest of their division, not sure if you wanted to talk about those."

Sure, as long as they're extraordinary. No need to limit to one per division. E.g. your Machida and Jones, and Pettis and Aldo might well end up in the same div themselves, either 145 or 155.

1/28/13 3:16 AM
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D241
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You talk about old Alistair Pride fights, why don't you talk about how Ryu Chonan beat Anderson on the feet? Or is it possible a fighter can improve over time?

 

Since you like gifs so much

 

1/28/13 3:18 AM
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MasterofMartialArts
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American1177 - Lol you tards putting Pettis at the top already. He is great but best in game? You fat slobs start to train Phone Post
Have you seen him fight? Or is that the extent of your contribution to the thread? Phone Post
1/28/13 3:21 AM
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D241
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Edited: 01/28/13 3:20 AM
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.                                    .                       .                         .

1/28/13 3:37 AM
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D241
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Edited: 01/28/13 3:36 AM
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Do me a favor, and watch the fight again. Please give me your detailed opinion as to why you think Werdum won the fight. Tell me what he did that would make him to come out the winner.

1/28/13 3:51 AM
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D241
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Out of 3 rounds, 3 judges scored that Alistair won every round, with the exception that one judge scored Werdum winning 1 round out of the 3.

30-27, 30-27, 29-28

 

Very anxious to hear your breakdown of how Werdum won.

1/28/13 3:54 AM
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Josh Davies
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Dunno how no one has said renan barao yet. He's a great striker Phone Post
1/28/13 8:20 AM
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DamnSevern
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speaking of, ewerton fought under mma rules last weekend

 

against a guy with a 1-3 record

1/28/13 8:21 AM
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DamnSevern
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.

1/28/13 8:21 AM
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DamnSevern
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.

1/28/13 8:22 AM
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Lazer MMA
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DamnSevern - 
Pro Ice - 

Anderson 

Pettis

Aldo

 

2nd tier

Machida - Not as creative as above - more predictable  No disrespect at all just my opinion

Barboza - Soon elite tier imo

Manhoef - Technique + power - best left hook in the sport imo

Overeem -  Power + technique 


Machida is more creative than Aldo



Moot in a real way! What makes someone MOST effective, i.e. 'elite' is having the tools to fight with BEST possible game plan; therefore, creativity/diversity is no completely paramount.

Aldo leg kicks are almost in a class of his own. They can change a fight right away. Great leg kicks are the MOST underutilized weapons in all of MMA. Aldo is top tier make no mistake on that Damn
1/28/13 8:40 AM
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Gokudamus stole my name
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whoabro - 
Gokudamus stole my name -
whoabro -  Reem's striking in mma is pretty awful imo from a technical perspective-- very stiff, no head movement, poor footwork, relies on his newfound size. And anyone who knows anything knows that his gp win had a LOT to do w injured and old opponents Phone Post

While i would agree Overeem is not that technical and relies too much on his size, i do think he doesnt get enough credit for his K-1 career

I can buy that he got the lucky draw in the GP. But he also beat Aerts in a super fight, a few months before that Aerts had just beaten Semmy Schilt who was almost invincible at the time. Then of course he went 1-1 against Badr Hari and lost a close decision to Remy Bonjasky. At worst one can say he was a top K-1 fighter but not the best K-1 fighter

And i dont see why he gets singled out for being lucky in the GP. Ernesto Hoost won a GP after being KTFO in the opening round, then he gets the alternate spot and fights Ray Sefo in the semis who injures his shin early in a freak accident. That leaves Hoost in the finale after a combined 5 minutes total in the ring against Lebanner who had just finished a 3 round war against Mark Hunt

Or how about Bonjasky who won a GP by beating Cyril Abidi and Musashi.


Sorry orcus for thread highjack lol
All fair points-- im not saying he sucks or anything, just that his GP win (and k1 career in general) doesnt mean hes a striking god. He is certainly very good and deserves credit for what hes done, especially the hari win. Phone Post

like i said we basically agree on Overeems technical ability in MMA and i wasnt trying to single you out, i had just read about his tainted GP win for like the 12th this month so thats why i did a FRAT

1/28/13 8:47 AM
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Lazer MMA
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Edited: 01/28/13 9:07 AM
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I guess the biggest issue with EVERY POSTERS INPUT that I read is that it's short sided IMO!

In order to fairly consider who is an 'elite striker' in MMA one must not ONLY consider striking 'Offense' but striking 'DEFENSE' as WELL! Logic dictates it's best in striking NOT to get hit.

I have a standing challenge to the forum as a whole to show any GIF of AS getting hit with a huge punch which was not partially blocked and landed FLUSH (meaning AS did not partially move away from the punch - NO ARM PUNCHES, the fighters weight MUST be behind the punch).

1. AS (the greatest defensive MMA striker who ever lived)
2. JBJ
3. Machida
4. Aldo
1/28/13 10:15 AM
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Infamous Ed
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I think we need to see overeem matched with Nelson, Carwin, Hunt, or JDS before we compare him to the elite tier of MMA striking Phone Post
1/28/13 11:09 AM
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Billyz
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Lyoto - easy to call
Aldo - he does some amazing things
Anderson - obvious and probably the best
Pettis - guy just keeps on amazing people
Call me crazy and hate to say it but.. Jones (think about it before you hate he dropped Lyoto in a good back and forth and Vitor barely ever touched him)

no particular order but Anderson would be top of the list regardless
1/28/13 11:22 AM
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Infamous Ed
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Billyz - Lyoto - easy to call
Aldo - he does some amazing things
Anderson - obvious and probably the best
Pettis - guy just keeps on amazing people
Call me crazy and hate to say it but.. Jones (think about it before you hate he dropped Lyoto in a good back and forth and Vitor barely ever touched him)

no particular order but Anderson would be top of the list regardless
I say wait on jones until he moves up to heavyweight. We'll see if his striking skill set, rather than his size, will hold up. Phone Post
1/28/13 12:14 PM
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orcus
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Edited: 01/28/13 12:17 PM
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"You talk about old Alistair Pride fights, why don't you talk about how Ryu Chonan beat Anderson on the feet? Or is it possible a fighter can improve over time?"

Yes, a fighter can improve....is your argument that Alistair has shown so much improvement since the Werdum fight -- i.e. in the ONE fight he has had since then, against post-surgeries Brock -- that it has launched him into the Wizard Tier?

It's really simple, which MMA fights should I watch to see Alistair show the kind of extraordinary standup displayed by the three guys in the OP?

"Very anxious to hear your breakdown of how Werdum won."

Because nothing of any significance happened in the fight, therefore Werdum gets the nod for attacking with some combos as shown, throwing and landing more overall, and one half-assed sub attempt. I gave you the Fightmetric link, why don't you just look at their breakdown if you're so "anxious"? More importantly, who gives a fuck? The fight was a turd just like Werdum/Arlovski, Maia/Weidman, etc. I would be happy if it were a draw or a double loss. Even if I watched it 60 more times and decided that Overeem edged it out, you think that would somehow convince me that he is a spectacular striker? 

1/28/13 4:04 PM
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D241
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Edited: 01/28/13 4:05 PM
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Did Anderson improve leaps and bounds after his Maia fight?

 

Orcus says Werdum beat Overeem in their Strikeforce bout. 

I have nothing further to add your honor.


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