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UnderGround Forums >> Carmouche's neck crank on rousey


2/25/13 9:38 AM
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aatu
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Bucephalus already proved Winston wrong, but if you still aren't convinced, just check any recent ADCC and you'll see the face crush used with success on very high level grapplers.
2/25/13 9:52 AM
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cheesesteak
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cruedi - It's what coleman tapped dan severn with, although severn was on the ground experienced grapplers get tapped like that.

This is what i'm saying. You have to be on the ground or even against the cage for a base...No?


Can it really be done without a base to be able to torque the lever? Isn't this just basic physics?

Please tell me how I am wrong on this..Yes I agree that some may tap as the pressure on the lip nerves may be excruciating but it is not a neck crank until Carmouche bases out somewhere.

Right? Wrong?
2/25/13 9:56 AM
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stuvelo
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I'd love to see all these folks saying this "isn't a submission" have that slapped on them by someone that knows what they are doing, it can be excruciating, just because you haven't done something in your white belt BJJ class or because you think it's "cheap" while rolling in class doesn't mean you won't get tapped by it.......

It is a bit of a reach to go for it standing, however it CAN work as long as you have both hooks secure, which is EXACTLY why Rousey reached down to pull out a hook.
2/25/13 9:59 AM
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cheesesteak
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Ok..So I reviewed this thing like a hundred times and it does seem that for 1 split second when Carmouch was around Rondas back with her hooks in she had a base where she could torque the neck...But it wasn't a stable base as all Ronda had to do is turn with the crank attempt and shuck her off...which she did...So ok, i'll admit for 1 second she may have had a neck crank possibility...But it would've take a real moron not to turn with it since there was no stable base...But from my experience it had all the looks of a face lock.
2/25/13 10:03 AM
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cheesesteak
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stuvelo - I'd love to see all these folks saying this "isn't a submission" have that slapped on them by someone that knows what they are doing, it can be excruciating, just because you haven't done something in your white belt BJJ class or because you think it's "cheap" while rolling in class doesn't mean you won't get tapped by it.......

It is a bit of a reach to go for it standing, however it CAN work as long as you have both hooks secure, which is EXACTLY why Rousey reached down to pull out a hook.

I agree with you...This is what i'm trying to get at...You really can't do this standing and I also don't think it's cheap. I've had it done to me and i've done it to others...But in my experience I have found that most experienced grapplers will deal with the pain and ultimately figure there was out unles totally based out with no options of escaping.
2/25/13 10:07 AM
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Winston Wolf
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Edited: 02/25/13 10:37 AM
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i admit it can hurt like Not a fan of themBut thats just my opinion.That said Aokis were pretty bad ass
2/25/13 10:57 AM
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Sequoyah Sandford
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Winston Wolf - anyone who has rolled is not tapping to that
Sure in practice go a head and tap no point in fighting it depending on the situation. Now in a fight no way am I tapping. Phone Post
2/25/13 11:33 AM
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cheesesteak
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Vitor the Taxi Driver Belfort - This was a face crush, not a neck crank..


At least I was taught to call them different names

I totally agree with punk rock vitor...It was 99% face crush, but I did observe for a split second when Carmouche had both her hooks in there was enough base and opportunity to do a quick crank, whether Carmouche realized it or not (i'm thinking not...it looked like a face crush for dear life) but it doesn't even matter because once the hook got picked out she was able to be tossed and did get tossed.
2/25/13 11:38 AM
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Herman Munster
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Ronda looked horrible defending that, and who knows what would have been if not for Ronda biting while in that position.

2/25/13 12:23 PM
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Winston Wolf
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Michai - 
sickdarce -
Winston Wolf - anyone who has rolled is not tapping to that
You must have never rolled.

That hurts like hell. Phone Post
That's what I was thinking. I'd rather have a full rear naked on me than a crank like that. Phone Post

if u did a face crush were i trained more than a few times u would probly be kicked out thats why i havent got any
2/25/13 1:01 PM
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WikiTheWalrus
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Bucephalus - 
WikiTheWalrus -  Maybe WW was referring to neck cranks in general, but I obviously was not.

Great. Well I said he was incorrect. And he has already acknowledged it.

Thanks for your input.

Touche, but your argument is semantics. You didn't say he was incorrect, you said "it's not correct" with the "it" being the statement "is not tapping to that." I was referring to "that" specifically as the hold Carmouche had on Rousey. You were referring to "that" as neck cranks in general, and WW seems to have been referring to neck cranks generally as well. There was a misunderstanding, cool, whatever, but it doesn't change the fact that Rousey wasn't in any trouble from that neck crank, which is what my assertion has been all along.

If you want to debate the technique and positioning of the Carmouche/Rousey neck crank, by all means; I await your breakdown. If you want to argue about neck cranks being a legit way to sub someone then there's no need; I would have agreed with you on that point from the beginning.
2/25/13 1:02 PM
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e. kaye
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Oh please.  Anyone saying that they wouldn't tap to a face crank/crossface has never had it done to them correctly.

2/25/13 1:16 PM
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WikiTheWalrus
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Pessimist_Pete - 
WikiTheWalrus -
Bucephalus - 
WikiTheWalrus - 
Winston Wolf - anyone who has rolled is not tapping to that

This is the correct.

No, it's not correct.

Yes it is. Every one of the examples posted above proves my point. In order for the crank to work from back mount, Rousey's back needed to be straight and turned into the crank. She was bending forward and her head was away from the crank.

This argument isn't whether a neck crank has ever finished anyone, it is whether an experienced grappler would have tapped to what Carmouche had on Rousey. Being an experienced grappler, I would not. I would do exactly what Rousey did. (and I have before in a jits tourney during the gold medal match, ending in an americana win for me)
I submitted you with a neck crank in the hold medal match. Phone Post

I've been submitted in a tournament once (that I can remember), and I've had roughly 60+ judo and jits tournament matches. The one sub wasn't a crank either, it was a 10-finger guillotine, which, like an asshat, I sat into it. (I thought I could pull-guard and pop my head out. That didn't work.)

Not bragging, just calling your BS.
2/25/13 1:24 PM
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WikiTheWalrus
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eagleswhat1 - 
WikiTheWalrus - 
Bucephalus - 
WikiTheWalrus - 
Winston Wolf - anyone who has rolled is not tapping to that

This is the correct.

No, it's not correct.

Yes it is. Every one of the examples posted above proves my point. In order for the crank to work from back mount, Rousey's back needed to be straight and turned into the crank. She was bending forward and her head was away from the crank.

This argument isn't whether a neck crank has ever finished anyone, it is whether an experienced grappler would have tapped to what Carmouche had on Rousey. Being an experienced grappler, I would not. I would do exactly what Rousey did. (and I have before in a jits tourney during the gold medal match, ending in an americana win for me)

yeah you're much more experienced then Rich Clementi...fuck out of here. I seen a nogi killer from Ashville NC tap an ATT blackbelt with a neckcrank

I understand the reading comprehension here is abysmal, but try to follow along. I am not talking about the general effectiveness of neck cranks. I am referring to the crank Carmouche had on Rousey.

Specifically, Carmouche did not have Rousey's back straightened (Rhonda was leaning forward, relieving pressure) and Carmouche did not have Rousey's face pulled into the crank. A neck crank where the head is being pushed away will never have as much pressure as a crank where the head is being pulled into the crank.
2/25/13 1:40 PM
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ausgepicht
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Bucephalus - 
TEX4N32 -  The teethmarks mentioned

Phone Post

Yeah.. when someone forces their forearm in another person's mouth, that tends to happen.

Exactly. Here's a better shot:

2/25/13 1:46 PM
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Jason
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Here is the problem.
This was an MMA fight,
Not a BJJ match.

Have neck cranks tapped people in BJJ and MMA? Yes of course they have.

But what Liz is doing there really is just a face smash/improper RNC. It's not even really a neck crank.

This is very evident by Ronda leaning forward, not using her hands on the arm at all.

Do people tap to neck cranks? Yep they sure do, but no one in competition would have tapped to that thing Liz was doing. Phone Post
2/25/13 1:49 PM
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WikiTheWalrus
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Rousey looks like this guy in that pic.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-5p58rk9e0Jo/TgrL5if2nmI/AAAAAAAAAU4/wkt91W-HHEI/s1600/Grinchsmile.jpg
2/25/13 1:53 PM
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AlexanderTheGOAT
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Winston Wolf - anyone who has rolled is not tapping to that
Tell that to Aoki, he's tapped several people with it. Phone Post
2/25/13 1:54 PM
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Winston Wolf
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AlexanderTheGOAT - 
Winston Wolf - anyone who has rolled is not tapping to that
Tell that to Aoki, he's tapped several people with it. Phone Post

i already said i was wrong but Ronda was nowhere near tapping
2/25/13 1:57 PM
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AlexanderTheGOAT
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Winston Wolf -
AlexanderTheGOAT - 
Winston Wolf - anyone who has rolled is not tapping to that
Tell that to Aoki, he's tapped several people with it. Phone Post

i already said i was wrong but Ronda was nowhere near tapping
Sorry I just went back and read the whole thread. I jumped on your comment too soon. Phone Post
2/25/13 2:21 PM
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Jumbo Reverse Shrimp
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Fobby -  We need a Gracie breakdown to settle this once and for all! I don't think Ronda was in trouble as Liz didn't have the correct position. But neck cranks are very dangerous if done properly... Phone Post

Yeah, where's my Gracie breakdown for UFC 157? Ryron, Renner, I am disappoint.
2/25/13 2:26 PM
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Ministry of Truth
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Winston Wolf - 
Chris27 - Bucephalus just shit all over Winston Wolf.

i admitted i was wrong i bet youve never been wrong.I dont claim to be a elite grappler but am a purple belt for 4 years.Ive never once tapped to a neck crank.Maybe its because they are considered dirty where i train and nobody would use them.The jaw crush IMO is especially dirty .If u cant get the choke under the neck crushing the face IMO is cheap but it is effective

You shouldn't have even justified that with a comment. He is just trying to get a reaction out of you (trolling).
2/25/13 2:27 PM
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Seats Taken
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spidermanik - For all the ug alphas saying no one taps to that, check out the bjj kumite and how Gary tonon has tapped a few guys with it, it's a legit technique. Phone Post
I came here to say this. Phone Post
2/25/13 2:30 PM
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Son of Neckbone
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eagleswhat1 - 
WikiTheWalrus - 
Bucephalus - 
WikiTheWalrus - 
Winston Wolf - anyone who has rolled is not tapping to that

This is the correct.

No, it's not correct.

Yes it is. Every one of the examples posted above proves my point. In order for the crank to work from back mount, Rousey's back needed to be straight and turned into the crank. She was bending forward and her head was away from the crank.

This argument isn't whether a neck crank has ever finished anyone, it is whether an experienced grappler would have tapped to what Carmouche had on Rousey. Being an experienced grappler, I would not. I would do exactly what Rousey did. (and I have before in a jits tourney during the gold medal match, ending in an americana win for me)

yeah you're much more experienced then Rich Clementi...fuck out of here. I seen a nogi killer from Ashville NC tap an ATT blackbelt with a neckcrank

I may have been tapped by the Ashevillian when I was at WCU.

There was a kid in Asheville that had a jawcrush variation of the guillotine that he caught me and several others with. He also had such a vicegrip closed guard that he popped people's shortribs with it a time or 2. For whatever reason this skinny bastard had the clamps to tap fools, where with most people you are looking to just make them uncomfortable enough to lose position.

Like WW said tho, most gyms consider cranks dirty and we didn't specifically train them at all due to them being less effective than chokes. Not ineffective, just less.
2/25/13 2:34 PM
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Kobayashi
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Facebar rather than a neckcrank IMHO Phone Post

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