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UnderGround Forums >> why not start no-gi, train gi after?


5/19/13 7:52 PM
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sekundarburnes
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i'm sure this has been discussed countless times on here or sherdog before, but i can't find any of those threads. here's the question: bjj instructors generally (with the notable exception of eddie bravo) insist on starting students out with the gi for a while before teaching no-gi stuff. it seems to me that the more natural thing to do is to start training with less (stuff to work with) and then graduate to the more detailed and varied version of jiu jitsu. that is, with the gi. any good bjj guys here know the reason why instruction isn't done this way, aside from tradition?
5/19/13 8:02 PM
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thegreatone287
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I personally feel that training gi first has help my awareness as well as defence in no gi. And this is my reasoning I don't have to worry about grips the whole time eg grabbing my gi. Phone Post
5/19/13 8:05 PM
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pulsar
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Gi to purple minimum before foucussing on no gi - and I vastly prefer no gi rolling.

5/19/13 10:23 PM
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HELWIG
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pulsar - 

Gi to purple minimum before foucussing on no gi - and I vastly prefer no gi rolling.


agreed

developed a ton of bad habits starting no gi

5/19/13 10:31 PM
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Immaculata
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TITAN Combat/TITAN Grappling Open, Promoter
Details.
5/19/13 11:10 PM
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Hunter V
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splits into a couple of reasons:

1) some instructors make bank off gi sales
2) it helps even the playing field if you do gi if guys coming in are high level wrestlers.
3) The gi will force guys to have to slow down as they can't use attributes or sweat to get out of things instead of using proper technique
4) having the gi will force guys to have to think more logically from the beginning. A lot of guys for no gi just flop like idiots (in the beginning, not talking guys from Bravo's or say Chris Brennan). Gi forces them to have to think about how to advance forward and deal w posture and grips which will help their critical thinking skills when they go to no gi.

And no I don't think you have to do gi to be good at no gi, but the reality is that many who start off no gi are sloppy (hence why who their instructor is becomes that much more important to make sure the proper basics are refined, be it for gi or no gi).
5/19/13 11:23 PM
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MTH
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Your assumption--that no gi has "less stuff" and is therefore less complicated--is where you go wrong.

No gi grappling doesn't involve "less." You still have all of the problems presented by a live, resisting opponent that you must control.

The difference is just that you don't have any hand holds. And you have very little friction. And, when you're being attacked, you aren't giving up any hand holds and are the beneficiary of that lack of friction.

The result is that no gi grappling tends to benefit more from explosiveness and athleticism, whereas gi grappling tends to benefit more from technique.

So no, I'd say it's better to focus first on gi grappling. You can slow the pace down. You can move from hand hold to hand hold. Your sense of control is higher. By contrast, gi grappling moves more quickly and is harder to slow down and control. Phone Post 3.0
5/19/13 11:25 PM
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banging
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Most schools, at least Almeida's in NJ are GI, they do have no-gi but I think it's for the MMA team or maybe just for competitors.
5/19/13 11:27 PM
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banging
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And if you're talking self defense then GI is the way to go for people that won't/not interested in no gi competitions. Everyone has clothes on and I can't tell you how many times I joked around and used a cross-collar choke; t-shirt, button-down, hoodie, doesn't matter - easy to choke, haha.
5/19/13 11:33 PM
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Virginio
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HELWIG -
pulsar - 

Gi to purple minimum before foucussing on no gi - and I vastly prefer no gi rolling.


agreed

developed a ton of bad habits starting no gi

Like what? Just exploding?

I started no gi for about 1.5 years before rolling in the gi under a legit blackbelt. I feel like it helped my understanding of some of the basics for some of the same reasons that the OP posted.

I enjoy both, but I'd have to say I am more of a gi guy. Phone Post 3.0
5/19/13 11:35 PM
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RockTheVote
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do both.  get better at both.

5/19/13 11:38 PM
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EvilGumby
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Starting with nogi is like starting to learn chess by playing speed chess with a clock. The gi is closer to "regular chess" where you have more time to 'make a move', then your opponent makes a move.

In nogi, for beginners, it's very easy for the game to move too quickly for them from move to move and they fall too far behind and make poor choices like a beginner speed chess player would.

The gi at least make it closer for a "physical chess match" that moves move to move rather than an athleticism contest where the better athlete gets 2 or 3 moves to your one. Try playing chess again someone where if you take too long to think and move your pieces they just go again and see who wins.
5/19/13 11:52 PM
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pulsar
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There's just things that you need to know and develop that help when starting with the gi.

It's harder to sub people with the gi so your attacks have to be a little more clever, innovative and resourceful. You learn to control your opponent better with the gi, which is important for initiating attacks. It's easier moving without the gi via less friction, so your movements become even more surgical with the gi, more precise. Missing out on gi chokes sounds ok when you're an MMA fanatic, but it's a necasary part of evolving your bjj game. They're the major ones in my book.

5/19/13 11:55 PM
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WestsideStrangler
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Edited: 05/20/13 12:15 AM
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This whole subject pisses me the fuck off

5/20/13 12:56 AM
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ausgepicht
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MARC BULGER -  Might as well learn how to ride a bike then start riding a bike on training wheels to be a better biker. Phone Post

Might as well play Ping Pong to prepare for a Tennis match.

Virtually identical.

5/20/13 1:01 AM
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SD CARTEL
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WestsideStrangler - 

This whole subject pisses me the fuck off


DUM DUM DUM...ANOTHER ONES BITES THE DUSTA!

-benkei
5/20/13 1:13 AM
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armbarring
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I first started No Gi then went Gi then went back No gi for years. Im just now putting the Gi back on. To me its all the same shit.
5/20/13 1:15 AM
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AlexanderTheGOAT
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I've done both for years. The gi is way easier. Learn in the gi because you'll get left in the dust in no gi. Phone Post 3.0
5/20/13 1:15 AM
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armbarring
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WestsideStrangler - 

This whole subject pisses me the fuck off


I remember my first west coast tournament at your Cali school. It was one of your In house round robins. I think it was in 2003.
5/20/13 1:32 AM
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Shanle929
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I feel it makes you better at technique and getting out of certain techniques. I wrestled all through jr high and high school so I definitely tried to be aggressive at first but Lear Ed how to slow down and now with Gi I learned more control and keeping everything tight too. Gi first for sure. Phone Post 3.0
5/20/13 2:09 AM
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sekundarburnes
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Hunter V, you get my vote up. good points. especially the first one, although it stings hearing it after my first failed launch with jiu jitsu 8 months ago when i got suckered into buying a nice gi from a school , only to find out after that i couldn't sign up.

thanks to the rest of you too
5/20/13 2:41 AM
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Ray Elbe
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HELWIG -
pulsar - 

Gi to purple minimum before foucussing on no gi - and I vastly prefer no gi rolling.


agreed

developed a ton of bad habits starting no gi

Is that because of the instructor though!? Phone Post 3.0
5/20/13 3:12 AM
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jones182
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If your not training in a Gi most of the time your doing it wrong . I can understand why mma guys train more no Gi but Gi jiu jitsu is the business for technical rolling.
have any no gi world champions ever won a tournament and came out and said they have never trained in a Gi? Phone Post 3.0
5/20/13 3:16 AM
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Oontyex
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No gi rewards exploding much more, but with the gi you're forced to solve the puzzle and learn from it Phone Post 3.0
5/20/13 4:22 AM
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Ray Elbe
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jones182 - If your not training in a Gi most of the time your doing it wrong . I can understand why mma guys train more no Gi but Gi jiu jitsu is the business for technical rolling.
have any no gi world champions ever won a tournament and came out and said they have never trained in a Gi? Phone Post 3.0
Ecrica cocco.

David Avellan. Phone Post 3.0

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