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UnderGround Forums >> ATN: Keith Kizer - WHY do TUEs for TRT Even EXIST?


5/20/13 12:18 PM
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Haulport
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Seems like there is still A LOT of confusion surrounding TRT and TRT Exemptions. I hope we can get some clarification...

It seems that if a fighter has a test/epitest ratio of more than 6:1 then they are violating NSAC rules. Also, there seems to be no radio isotope test done to see if levels below 6:1 have the presence of synthetic test.

Meanwhile, there seems to be more and more fighters getting or looking to get TRT Exemptions.

- What exactly is the nature of this exemption?
- Can a fighter with an exemption have a higher than 6:1 ratio and still fight?
- If yes, what are the circumstances where they can (i.e. they have an exemption and then a doctor's note saying they got a shot close to their fight)?
- If they cannot fight with a higher than 6:1 ratio will their suspension be reduced because they have the exemption?
- If not, what is the point of the exemption?

If a fighter is not allowed to have a ratio higher than 6:1 regardless of an exemption than I do not understand what the benefit of having a TUE is. If a fighter takes TRT and has a 4:1 ratio than the Commission does no further testing (i.e. radio isotope for synthetic test). And if the fighter has a 10:1 ratio but will not be allowed to fight and will be suspended regardless of the TUE, then why have the exemption? What EXACTLY are they exempt from?

It is all very confusing.

Thank you, in advance, for your clarification.

5/20/13 12:24 PM
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Haulport
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Also, are there any links to online documentation regarding the rules of the exemption?

5/20/13 12:34 PM
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BobD
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I suggest a quick trip to the NSAC site.  It's all laid out there in great detail.  It will take some digging, but it's worthwhile.  For even more detail, and why TUE's are offered, go to either the USADA or WADA sites.

5/20/13 12:42 PM
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orcus
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From my understanding, the point of the exemption is because technically you aren't allowed to use any kind of testosterone or steroid at any time. This allows them to use the otherwise banned substance to get their levels to normal.

They aren't allowed to have higher levels/ratio. Marquardt had a TRT exemption but was still suspended when he came in too high for the Story fight (he informed them in advance it would be).

5/20/13 12:49 PM
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UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA
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Haulport -

Also, are there any links to online documentation regarding the rules of the exemption?

There should also be public documentation of these newer more frequent overall testosterone tests they claim they subject TUE fighters to...

Easy to just claim they tested chael more frequently, but lets see the results... Phone Post
5/20/13 1:51 PM
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Haulport
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orcus - 

From my understanding, the point of the exemption is because technically you aren't allowed to use any kind of testosterone or steroid at any time. This allows them to use the otherwise banned substance to get their levels to normal.

They aren't allowed to have higher levels/ratio. Marquardt had a TRT exemption but was still suspended when he came in too high for the Story fight (he informed them in advance it would be).


Yes, but that is not any real reason. There are two scenarios here:

- If your levels do not exceed 6:1 then you are not tested for synthetic test so you won't be suspended.

- If your levels exceed 6:1 then you get suspended regardless.

What are you EXEMPT from? A test that won't ever happen or a suspension that will regardless of the exemption?

None of that makes an IOTA of sense....................

5/20/13 1:54 PM
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Haulport
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BobD - 

I suggest a quick trip to the NSAC site.  It's all laid out there in great detail.  It will take some digging, but it's worthwhile.  For even more detail, and why TUE's are offered, go to either the USADA or WADA sites.


the NSAC searchresults page is fucked:

Server Error in '/' Application.

5/20/13 2:02 PM
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Haulport
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Edited: 05/20/13 2:02 PM
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Found this which answers none of the above questions.

http://boxing.nv.gov/uploadedFiles/boxingnvgov/content/faq/TUE-NSAC.pdf

http://boxing.nv.gov/uploadedFiles/boxingnvgov/content/faq/TRT_TUE_GUIDELINES_03-12-12.pdf

5/20/13 2:04 PM
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NJstileNJ
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I thought it was just to get their levels up to normal and if they were over they were suspended...but good questions on if they are under the normal level do they get tested...I was under the impression they just tested the sample for illegal substances no matter what the level is.
5/20/13 2:06 PM
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Haulport
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NJstileNJ - I thought it was just to get their levels up to normal and if they were over they were suspended...but good questions on if they are under the normal level do they get tested...I was under the impression they just tested the sample for illegal substances no matter what the level is.

Yeah, that is the real confusing thing. It seems that NO radio isotope tests are done to detect synthetic test if your piss test has a ratio that is 6:1 or below.

5/20/13 2:10 PM
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disbeliever
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It stinks there is not anyway, so far as I understand it, to determine WHY a man's Testosterone is low and in need of TRT. I think it would make a world of difference if a man has other medical issues that cause his levels to drop, versus a man who roided and killed his own hormone system.
5/20/13 2:23 PM
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madmav
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it's all a bunch of mumbo jumbo to give the appearance that a govt funded commission is actually regulating the  various sports under their jurisdiction.. the reality is much different though imo. most AC's seem to be more interested in collecting fines, fees and other sorts of "taxes" 

5/20/13 2:33 PM
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Haulport
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disbeliever - It stinks there is not anyway, so far as I understand it, to determine WHY a man's Testosterone is low and in need of TRT. I think it would make a world of difference if a man has other medical issues that cause his levels to drop, versus a man who roided and killed his own hormone system.

I don't know. In either case I think it's wrong. It's like giving a guy with one arm an exemption to use an iron hook so he can club his opponents over the head with it...

5/20/13 2:37 PM
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HexRei
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They do test for the presence of steroids. People pop for specific steroids all the time.

I never spoke with Keith about the test:epitest ratios but he did tell me that the 600 ng/ml range is the normal cutoff for fighters with a TRT TUE and that even with a TUE, they would have some 'splaining to do if they exceeded that range.
5/20/13 2:45 PM
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Haulport
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HexRei - They do test for the presence of steroids. People pop for specific steroids all the time.

I never spoke with Keith about the test:epitest ratios but he did tell me that the 600 ng/ml range is the normal cutoff for fighters with a TRT TUE and that even with a TUE, they would have some 'splaining to do if they exceeded that range.

This is specific to the TRT TUE and that revolves around the ratios. Does the explaining involve just explaining and they are allowed to fight with higher than 6:1 ratios or do you mean they would end up suspended with a NC result for the fight?

On a tangent note: I feel that a fighter who tests positive should suffer a DQ loss and not get a NC...

5/20/13 2:45 PM
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Chhem
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Do other sports allow this kind of exemption? Phone Post 3.0
5/20/13 2:49 PM
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HexRei
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Haulport - 
HexRei - They do test for the presence of steroids. People pop for specific steroids all the time.

I never spoke with Keith about the test:epitest ratios but he did tell me that the 600 ng/ml range is the normal cutoff for fighters with a TRT TUE and that even with a TUE, they would have some 'splaining to do if they exceeded that range.

This is specific to the TRT TUE and that revolves around the ratios. Does the explaining involve just explaining and they are allowed to fight with higher than 6:1 ratios or do you mean they would end up suspended with a NC result for the fight?

On a tangent note: I feel that a fighter who tests positive should suffer a DQ loss and not get a NC...


I'm just relating something Keith told me about another metric they use, it would seem there is more than just the one that plays into it.
5/20/13 2:49 PM
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Haulport
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Chhem - Do other sports allow this kind of exemption? Phone Post 3.0

I know most definitely do for certain things (like asthma meds) but I don't know about Test...

5/20/13 2:53 PM
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Haulport
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HexRei - 
Haulport - 
HexRei - They do test for the presence of steroids. People pop for specific steroids all the time.

I never spoke with Keith about the test:epitest ratios but he did tell me that the 600 ng/ml range is the normal cutoff for fighters with a TRT TUE and that even with a TUE, they would have some 'splaining to do if they exceeded that range.

This is specific to the TRT TUE and that revolves around the ratios. Does the explaining involve just explaining and they are allowed to fight with higher than 6:1 ratios or do you mean they would end up suspended with a NC result for the fight?

On a tangent note: I feel that a fighter who tests positive should suffer a DQ loss and not get a NC...


I'm just relating something Keith told me about another metric they use, it would seem there is more than just the one that plays into it.

Rigt. I am genuinely just trying to understand the logic and nature of this (because everyone won't stop talking about it). I really do not understand the whole situation (no one seems to) and want to figure it out. it doesn't seem like you are really exempt from anything with a TUE unless you are allowed to fight over 6:1 or you get a reduced suspension or something. They don't test for synthetic testosterone unless your levels are above 6:1 so you aren't exempt from radio isotope testing and if you aren't allowed to have a +6:1 ratio than you aren't exempt from that either.

So what are you exempt from?

To use something that isn't tested for unless you get yourself suspended regardless??????????

5/20/13 3:06 PM
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disbeliever
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Haulport - 
disbeliever - It stinks there is not anyway, so far as I understand it, to determine WHY a man's Testosterone is low and in need of TRT. I think it would make a world of difference if a man has other medical issues that cause his levels to drop, versus a man who roided and killed his own hormone system.


I don't know. In either case I think it's wrong. It's like giving a guy with one arm an exemption to use an iron hook so he can club his opponents over the head with it...


I don't necessarily agree with this, and I don't think thats a fair example.

What if Brocks diverticulitis had caused his body to shut down, or dramatically slow his bodies testosterone production. He never tested for any steroids before, yet a completely unrelated and life threatening illness shut his own T down. He makes his recovery, and applies for a TRT exemption to bring his levels back to the norm they once were so he can compete again.

I don't think my scenario, and Vitor's are the same thing. Do you? Vitor has tested positive for steroids before, which his past use is likely to be the reason for needing a T boost. Brock's example had nothing to do with steroids.
5/20/13 3:16 PM
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dakotajudo
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Haulport - 

Seems like there is still A LOT of confusion surrounding TRT and TRT Exemptions. I hope we can get some clarification...

It seems that if a fighter has a test/epitest ratio of more than 6:1 then they are violating NSAC rules. Also, there seems to be no radio isotope test done to see if levels below 6:1 have the presence of synthetic test.

Meanwhile, there seems to be more and more fighters getting or looking to get TRT Exemptions.

- What exactly is the nature of this exemption?
- Can a fighter with an exemption have a higher than 6:1 ratio and still fight?
- If yes, what are the circumstances where they can (i.e. they have an exemption and then a doctor's note saying they got a shot close to their fight)?
- If they cannot fight with a higher than 6:1 ratio will their suspension be reduced because they have the exemption?
- If not, what is the point of the exemption?

If a fighter is not allowed to have a ratio higher than 6:1 regardless of an exemption than I do not understand what the benefit of having a TUE is. If a fighter takes TRT and has a 4:1 ratio than the Commission does no further testing (i.e. radio isotope for synthetic test). And if the fighter has a 10:1 ratio but will not be allowed to fight and will be suspended regardless of the TUE, then why have the exemption? What EXACTLY are they exempt from?

It is all very confusing.

Thank you, in advance, for your clarification.


I think you're confusing the chemistry.

First, the TUE is an exemption to use a banned substance - no more, no less. In this case, it's Testosterone, but it could be anything listed in http://www.leg.state.nv.us/NAC/NAC-467.html#NAC467Sec850

A test/epitest ratio of 6:1 or greater does not in and of itself provide evidence that an athlete is using a banned substance. The TE ratio test is simply a screening tool, to allow testers to process a large number of samples over a short period of time.

You need to remember that testing takes time, and for some events (i.e. the Olympic Games) there may be hundreds, if not thousands, of samples to be chemically processed for testing. The ratio test is selected to be sensitive - that is, it will catch the vast majority of cheats - while also selective - there won't be an inordinate number of false positives. A ratio test is good for a quick initial screen because it has it's own internal control; a more quantitative assay would require much more effort.

Again, the TE ratio test is only a screening (or presumptive) test. The confirmatory test would be the carbon isotope test (not a radioisotope test - this test discriminates between C12 and C13). However, this test requires more care and skill, and I presume is more expensive, therefore not suitable for screening.

But note, the CI test only determines the chemical origin of testosterone (short answer, synthetic hydrocarbons won't have the same C12/13 ratio as plant or animal derived hydrocarbons). A cheater could use animal-derived testosterone and pass the CI test.

A fighter with a TUE would, I presume, still be screened (because screening involves blinding - the chemists can't know the origin of the samples), but any result pertaining to testosterone would be ignored by the commission. They might instead choose to require additional blood testing to determine testosterone levels. In this case, the CI test would not be needed - the source of testosterone covered by TUE wouldn't matter, just circulating levels.

5/20/13 3:20 PM
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Haulport
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Haulport - 
disbeliever - It stinks there is not anyway, so far as I understand it, to determine WHY a man's Testosterone is low and in need of TRT. I think it would make a world of difference if a man has other medical issues that cause his levels to drop, versus a man who roided and killed his own hormone system.


I don't know. In either case I think it's wrong. It's like giving a guy with one arm an exemption to use an iron hook so he can club his opponents over the head with it...


I don't necessarily agree with this, and I don't think thats a fair example.

What if Brocks diverticulitis had caused his body to shut down, or dramatically slow his bodies testosterone production. He never tested for any steroids before, yet a completely unrelated and life threatening illness shut his own T down. He makes his recovery, and applies for a TRT exemption to bring his levels back to the norm they once were so he can compete again.

I don't think my scenario, and Vitor's are the same thing. Do you? Vitor has tested positive for steroids before, which his past use is likely to be the reason for needing a T boost. Brock's example had nothing to do with steroids.

There is actually no way to really, scientifically determine something like that.

To me, if a man is suffereing from something related to deficiencies in hormones that are historically used to enhance performance to ridiculous levels (sudafed is really not going to give you what Test would) I don't think he should be allowed to use a performance enhancer. Steroids/Test, HGH, etc. are just far to easy to abuse in the extreme and have too great an effect on performance (outside of slipping speed to a tired fighter late in a fight).

The chances for abuse are too great and too difficult to detect unless they up-end their testing practices. If a fighter (steroid abuser or not) were required to do bi-weekly blood tests during their training camp to determine that they weren't above 4:1 for any extended period of time then I would be ok with it.

5/20/13 3:24 PM
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disbeliever
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Haulport - 
disbeliever - 
Haulport - 
disbeliever - It stinks there is not anyway, so far as I understand it, to determine WHY a man's Testosterone is low and in need of TRT. I think it would make a world of difference if a man has other medical issues that cause his levels to drop, versus a man who roided and killed his own hormone system.


I don't know. In either case I think it's wrong. It's like giving a guy with one arm an exemption to use an iron hook so he can club his opponents over the head with it...


I don't necessarily agree with this, and I don't think thats a fair example.

What if Brocks diverticulitis had caused his body to shut down, or dramatically slow his bodies testosterone production. He never tested for any steroids before, yet a completely unrelated and life threatening illness shut his own T down. He makes his recovery, and applies for a TRT exemption to bring his levels back to the norm they once were so he can compete again.

I don't think my scenario, and Vitor's are the same thing. Do you? Vitor has tested positive for steroids before, which his past use is likely to be the reason for needing a T boost. Brock's example had nothing to do with steroids.

There is actually no way to really, scientifically determine something like that.

To me, if a man is suffereing from something related to deficiencies in hormones that are historically used to enhance performance to ridiculous levels (sudafed is really not going to give you what Test would) I don't think he should be allowed to use a performance enhancer. Steroids/Test, HGH, etc. are just far to easy to abuse in the extreme and have too great an effect on performance (outside of slipping speed to a tired fighter late in a fight).

The chances for abuse are too great and too difficult to detect unless they up-end their testing practices. If a fighter (steroid abuser or not) were required to do bi-weekly blood tests during their training camp to determine that they weren't above 4:1 for any extended period of time then I would be ok with it.


We seem to agree on some points. How often, if ever, does Dana/UFC blood test TRT exempt fighters? I know he said he was going to, but did they?
5/20/13 3:26 PM
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HexRei
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Haulport - 
HexRei - 
Haulport - 
HexRei - They do test for the presence of steroids. People pop for specific steroids all the time.

I never spoke with Keith about the test:epitest ratios but he did tell me that the 600 ng/ml range is the normal cutoff for fighters with a TRT TUE and that even with a TUE, they would have some 'splaining to do if they exceeded that range.

This is specific to the TRT TUE and that revolves around the ratios. Does the explaining involve just explaining and they are allowed to fight with higher than 6:1 ratios or do you mean they would end up suspended with a NC result for the fight?

On a tangent note: I feel that a fighter who tests positive should suffer a DQ loss and not get a NC...


I'm just relating something Keith told me about another metric they use, it would seem there is more than just the one that plays into it.

Rigt. I am genuinely just trying to understand the logic and nature of this (because everyone won't stop talking about it). I really do not understand the whole situation (no one seems to) and want to figure it out. it doesn't seem like you are really exempt from anything with a TUE unless you are allowed to fight over 6:1 or you get a reduced suspension or something. They don't test for synthetic testosterone unless your levels are above 6:1 so you aren't exempt from radio isotope testing and if you aren't allowed to have a +6:1 ratio than you aren't exempt from that either.

So what are you exempt from?

To use something that isn't tested for unless you get yourself suspended regardless??????????


Form what I saw of Chael's agreement with the NSAC, he had to come down off the drug in the weeks leading up to his fight, meaning that presumably he could have a much higher ratio than the permitted fight day ratio during training camp. Perhaps the TUE provides protection during that period.
5/20/13 3:27 PM
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Haulport
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Haulport - 

Seems like there is still A LOT of confusion surrounding TRT and TRT Exemptions. I hope we can get some clarification...

It seems that if a fighter has a test/epitest ratio of more than 6:1 then they are violating NSAC rules. Also, there seems to be no radio isotope test done to see if levels below 6:1 have the presence of synthetic test.

Meanwhile, there seems to be more and more fighters getting or looking to get TRT Exemptions.

- What exactly is the nature of this exemption?
- Can a fighter with an exemption have a higher than 6:1 ratio and still fight?
- If yes, what are the circumstances where they can (i.e. they have an exemption and then a doctor's note saying they got a shot close to their fight)?
- If they cannot fight with a higher than 6:1 ratio will their suspension be reduced because they have the exemption?
- If not, what is the point of the exemption?

If a fighter is not allowed to have a ratio higher than 6:1 regardless of an exemption than I do not understand what the benefit of having a TUE is. If a fighter takes TRT and has a 4:1 ratio than the Commission does no further testing (i.e. radio isotope for synthetic test). And if the fighter has a 10:1 ratio but will not be allowed to fight and will be suspended regardless of the TUE, then why have the exemption? What EXACTLY are they exempt from?

It is all very confusing.

Thank you, in advance, for your clarification.


I think you're confusing the chemistry.

First, the TUE is an exemption to use a banned substance - no more, no less. In this case, it's Testosterone, but it could be anything listed in http://www.leg.state.nv.us/NAC/NAC-467.html#NAC467Sec850

A test/epitest ratio of 6:1 or greater does not in and of itself provide evidence that an athlete is using a banned substance. The TE ratio test is simply a screening tool, to allow testers to process a large number of samples over a short period of time.

You need to remember that testing takes time, and for some events (i.e. the Olympic Games) there may be hundreds, if not thousands, of samples to be chemically processed for testing. The ratio test is selected to be sensitive - that is, it will catch the vast majority of cheats - while also selective - there won't be an inordinate number of false positives. A ratio test is good for a quick initial screen because it has it's own internal control; a more quantitative assay would require much more effort.

Again, the TE ratio test is only a screening (or presumptive) test. The confirmatory test would be the carbon isotope test (not a radioisotope test - this test discriminates between C12 and C13). However, this test requires more care and skill, and I presume is more expensive, therefore not suitable for screening.

But note, the CI test only determines the chemical origin of testosterone (short answer, synthetic hydrocarbons won't have the same C12/13 ratio as plant or animal derived hydrocarbons). A cheater could use animal-derived testosterone and pass the CI test.

A fighter with a TUE would, I presume, still be screened (because screening involves blinding - the chemists can't know the origin of the samples), but any result pertaining to testosterone would be ignored by the commission. They might instead choose to require additional blood testing to determine testosterone levels. In this case, the CI test would not be needed - the source of testosterone covered by TUE wouldn't matter, just circulating levels.


Thank you for your post and the clarification of the tests, but it misses the critical point of this thread:

Why would a fighter need an exemption to use a banned sustance if that banned substance is NOT tested for unless the ratio screen is above 6:1 and THEN they are suspended anyway? If you have a 10:1 ratio and that gets you suspended it no longer matters whether you used that banned substance.

So, again, what are you exempt from?

To use something that isn't tested for unless you get yourself suspended regardless?

That makes no sense whatsoever.


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