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UnderGround Forums >> Burkman vs Fitch


6/15/13 9:43 AM
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DatSpider
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Time to read up on Burkman o_O


you don't just submit Jon Fitch
6/15/13 9:43 AM
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ColefistbumpedmyBuffer
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You're so right, Dana! He needs to be GONE! You're the best!

.....

(waits for free UFC tix) Phone Post
6/15/13 9:44 AM
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UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA
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RJJH -

Dana must have been going bananas when BJ Penn held the choke on Jens for 5x that length. or even Jones on Machida. oh wait, no he didnt.

In both of those comparisons the ref was right there doing his job perfectly. Could you have failed any harder with that response??? Phone Post
6/15/13 9:46 AM
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Standup29
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I think it was more the non reactive response after Josh got up that is the issue. Plus Maz was just standing and not even trying to get a better angle.

Hate Dana or not, Maz looked lost at the finish. Phone Post
6/15/13 9:46 AM
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UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA
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Kerouac -
krislovestheseacocks - 
Kerouac - 
And Wagners Cut - 
Kerouac - So yeh, not sure what the fuck you guys are outraged about.
Really? How about the fact that Mazagatti was stood on the wrong side about 6 foot from the action.

Him being stood there meant he never did or never would have seen Fitch go limp. Phone Post 3.0

Maybes are hard to go on, but I get your point. He seemed laissez-faireish.

Still though, Josh let go, Fitch was out, fight over...no damage.

Think about all the one hit knockouts that are followed up with at least one punch...should all the refs that don't swandive between both fighters be scrutinized the same way?

Quite a few wagoners here.

Yes, because a ref getting beat to the spot by punches is equatable to literally not comprehending what's happening in front of you. Mazz didn't even swoop in to investigate Fitch's condition/status, because he had no idea what the fuck was unfolding in front of him.

If you don't think this is cause for concern, and believe anyone who does is a "wagoner," you possess a special kind of stupid.

lol @ cause for concern

About 1 second after Fitch stopped moving, Josh released the hold.
There's no ref in the business, even if he/she was on the right side to see the action, that would have had time to tell Josh to let go of the hold faster than he let it go himself.

I said he was laissez-faire about it, that's as far as I'll go with the dramatics...i'll leave you dramaqueens to bring in the shrill.
The whole premise is NOT whether mazigatti could have stopped it faster given burkman letting go so fast.

The premise is what if burkman did NOT let go until the ref steps in, which is what they are trained and instructed to do.... Phone Post
6/15/13 9:50 AM
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Standup29
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UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA -
Kerouac -
krislovestheseacocks - 
Kerouac - 
And Wagners Cut - 
Kerouac - So yeh, not sure what the fuck you guys are outraged about.
Really? How about the fact that Mazagatti was stood on the wrong side about 6 foot from the action.

Him being stood there meant he never did or never would have seen Fitch go limp. Phone Post 3.0

Maybes are hard to go on, but I get your point. He seemed laissez-faireish.

Still though, Josh let go, Fitch was out, fight over...no damage.

Think about all the one hit knockouts that are followed up with at least one punch...should all the refs that don't swandive between both fighters be scrutinized the same way?

Quite a few wagoners here.

Yes, because a ref getting beat to the spot by punches is equatable to literally not comprehending what's happening in front of you. Mazz didn't even swoop in to investigate Fitch's condition/status, because he had no idea what the fuck was unfolding in front of him.

If you don't think this is cause for concern, and believe anyone who does is a "wagoner," you possess a special kind of stupid.

lol @ cause for concern

About 1 second after Fitch stopped moving, Josh released the hold.
There's no ref in the business, even if he/she was on the right side to see the action, that would have had time to tell Josh to let go of the hold faster than he let it go himself.

I said he was laissez-faire about it, that's as far as I'll go with the dramatics...i'll leave you dramaqueens to bring in the shrill.
The whole premise is NOT whether mazigatti could have stopped it faster given burkman letting go so fast.

The premise is what if burkman did NOT let go until the ref steps in, which is what they are trained and instructed to do.... Phone Post
Agree with LNP. Its not if he could have stopped it faster it's that he looked lost and was non reactive to what was happening or just happened. Josh gets up and Maz just looked like he didn't even care one of the fighters had just been choked unconscious.

H3 should have been at least trying to get a better angle. He stood there like Fitch was just sitting in his guard resting. Phone Post
6/15/13 9:59 AM
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njbIII
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Mazagatti was a "guest" ref at one of my fights for LFC in Louisiana in 08 and during the rules meeting he was falling asleep standing up he sorta looked like a real life bobble head figure. Guy seemed loaded Phone Post 3.0
6/15/13 10:05 AM
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Kerouac
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Standup29 - 
UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA -
Kerouac -
krislovestheseacocks - 
Kerouac - 
And Wagners Cut - 
Kerouac - So yeh, not sure what the fuck you guys are outraged about.
Really? How about the fact that Mazagatti was stood on the wrong side about 6 foot from the action.

Him being stood there meant he never did or never would have seen Fitch go limp. Phone Post 3.0

Maybes are hard to go on, but I get your point. He seemed laissez-faireish.

Still though, Josh let go, Fitch was out, fight over...no damage.

Think about all the one hit knockouts that are followed up with at least one punch...should all the refs that don't swandive between both fighters be scrutinized the same way?

Quite a few wagoners here.

Yes, because a ref getting beat to the spot by punches is equatable to literally not comprehending what's happening in front of you. Mazz didn't even swoop in to investigate Fitch's condition/status, because he had no idea what the fuck was unfolding in front of him.

If you don't think this is cause for concern, and believe anyone who does is a "wagoner," you possess a special kind of stupid.

lol @ cause for concern

About 1 second after Fitch stopped moving, Josh released the hold.
There's no ref in the business, even if he/she was on the right side to see the action, that would have had time to tell Josh to let go of the hold faster than he let it go himself.

I said he was laissez-faire about it, that's as far as I'll go with the dramatics...i'll leave you dramaqueens to bring in the shrill.
The whole premise is NOT whether mazigatti could have stopped it faster given burkman letting go so fast.

The premise is what if burkman did NOT let go until the ref steps in, which is what they are trained and instructed to do.... Phone Post
Agree with LNP. Its not if he could have stopped it faster it's that he looked lost and was non reactive to what was happening or just happened. Josh gets up and Maz just looked like he didn't even care one of the fighters had just been choked unconscious.

H3 should have been at least trying to get a better angle. He stood there like Fitch was just sitting in his guard resting. Phone Post

Hence my usage of " Laissez-faire ".

I'm not a fan of what ifs and maybes.

But since speculation is at hand, I'd venture to say that if Josh had held for another second, Mazz would have jumped to the other side to see if Fitch was ok or not.
6/15/13 10:06 AM
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lurkingveteran
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People are getting distracted by the fact Mazagatti couldnt of stopped it faster than the 1.5 seconds it took before Burkman lets go, THIS IS NOT THE POINT!

Assume Burkman like 95pc of fighters doesnt let go until the ref stops it. Mazzagatti is not even considering the possibility that Fitch could be in trouble let alone out when he is in fact UNCONSCIOUS.

Then we have potentially the time to get down on the ground to check how bad it is and if the choke is tight...then actually check if Fitch is attempting to defend ..then if Fitch is limp..then actually touch Fitch to confirm ..and them pull Burkmam off. This could take one second to do but it MAY take another 5-10 seconds, it is POSSIBLE.

So because the ref was not positioned and prepared close to the submission it could of been 6-11 seconds of time with no blood to the brain which MAY of caused serious damage.

IN MMA we need to reduce the probability of a serious injury occuring, its not about certainty its about reducing the possibility of injury and Mazzagatti CLEARLY did not do this.

It is not complicated, the refereeing here was fcking scandalous! Phone Post 3.0
6/15/13 10:10 AM
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UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA
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Kerouac -
Standup29 - 
UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA -
Kerouac -
krislovestheseacocks - 
Kerouac - 
And Wagners Cut - 
Kerouac - So yeh, not sure what the fuck you guys are outraged about.
Really? How about the fact that Mazagatti was stood on the wrong side about 6 foot from the action.

Him being stood there meant he never did or never would have seen Fitch go limp. Phone Post 3.0

Maybes are hard to go on, but I get your point. He seemed laissez-faireish.

Still though, Josh let go, Fitch was out, fight over...no damage.

Think about all the one hit knockouts that are followed up with at least one punch...should all the refs that don't swandive between both fighters be scrutinized the same way?

Quite a few wagoners here.

Yes, because a ref getting beat to the spot by punches is equatable to literally not comprehending what's happening in front of you. Mazz didn't even swoop in to investigate Fitch's condition/status, because he had no idea what the fuck was unfolding in front of him.

If you don't think this is cause for concern, and believe anyone who does is a "wagoner," you possess a special kind of stupid.

lol @ cause for concern

About 1 second after Fitch stopped moving, Josh released the hold.
There's no ref in the business, even if he/she was on the right side to see the action, that would have had time to tell Josh to let go of the hold faster than he let it go himself.

I said he was laissez-faire about it, that's as far as I'll go with the dramatics...i'll leave you dramaqueens to bring in the shrill.
The whole premise is NOT whether mazigatti could have stopped it faster given burkman letting go so fast.

The premise is what if burkman did NOT let go until the ref steps in, which is what they are trained and instructed to do.... Phone Post
Agree with LNP. Its not if he could have stopped it faster it's that he looked lost and was non reactive to what was happening or just happened. Josh gets up and Maz just looked like he didn't even care one of the fighters had just been choked unconscious.

H3 should have been at least trying to get a better angle. He stood there like Fitch was just sitting in his guard resting. Phone Post

Hence my usage of " Laissez-faire ".

I'm not a fan of what ifs and maybes.

But since speculation is at hand, I'd venture to say that if Josh had held for another second, Mazz would have jumped to the other side to see if Fitch was ok or not.
Yep, and then after taking the time to get to that side he would have had to get in close, shake and arm, and then stop the fight. Adding another 3-5 seconds of blood cut off to the brain.

That's the point.

He was out of position, wasn't even crouched close to them, and seemed to be not even mentally there as it was going down.

You can call it lazie-whatever the fuck you want, but it was incompetence. Phone Post
6/15/13 10:13 AM
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lurkingveteran
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lurkingveteran - People are getting distracted by the fact Mazagatti couldnt of stopped it faster than the 1.5 seconds it took before Burkman lets go, THIS IS NOT THE POINT!

Assume Burkman like 95pc of fighters doesnt let go until the ref stops it. Mazzagatti is not even considering the possibility that Fitch could be in trouble let alone out when he is in fact UNCONSCIOUS.

Then we have potentially the time to get down on the ground to check how bad it is and if the choke is tight...then actually check if Fitch is attempting to defend ..then if Fitch is limp..then actually touch Fitch to confirm ..and them pull Burkmam off. This could take one second to do but it MAY take another 5-10 seconds, it is POSSIBLE.

So because the ref was not positioned and prepared close to the submission it could of been 6-11 seconds of time with no blood to the brain which MAY of caused serious damage.

IN MMA we need to reduce the probability of a serious injury occuring, its not about certainty its about reducing the possibility of injury and Mazzagatti CLEARLY did not do this.

It is not complicated, the refereeing here was fcking scandalous! Phone Post 3.0
And lets look at maths, assume 90 percent of fighters would be fine for being out that amount if time and lets assume 90 percent of thr time Mazzagatti would of got down to stop it rapidly even though not close to the action.

Fine right...

No cos that means thats 1/10 chance x 1/10 chance which means its only 1/100 chance that someone could be fatally or seriously injured in that situation. That would be end of that persons life and the end of MMA.

We dont gamble with odds like that upto 10000-1 on things as serious as that if they can be AVOIDED! Phone Post 3.0
6/15/13 10:15 AM
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defcons
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Piss test Mazz, looked spaced out... lol

6/15/13 10:18 AM
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Rob San Soo
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Damn then he just jams from the cage Phone Post 3.0
6/15/13 10:23 AM
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WestCoastKid
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Assume he...

Could of...
Would of...
Should of...

What if he...

Did Fitch get hurt or has anyone seriously gotten hurt or die while Maz was reffing or after reffing thousands of fights over almost twenty years...



NO



You guys complain about Mirgliotta and even Kim Winslow but no one has ever died while they were reffing either


All of these "claims" are nothing more than exaggerations
6/15/13 10:47 AM
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MagSlim
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It's even crazier in light of this happening across from the NBA Finals, where the refs are owned by the league and the shit is 100% rigged for who the league wants to win.

MMA is like the bizarro world opposite, where the refs are still bad, but no one controls them an you have no idea who is going to get screwed over next! Phone Post 3.0
6/15/13 10:49 AM
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Forssberg
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"You guys complain about Mirgliotta and even Kim Winslow but no one has ever died while they were reffing either"

Not a thoughtful argument by any means.
6/15/13 10:51 AM
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Hel13torm
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Holy shit.... Didn't give Burkman any chance in this fight. Amazing sub Phone Post
6/15/13 11:00 AM
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UGCTT_mmafan420
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x9uv - the fuck are you all moaning about?

fitch didnt tap. he was posted up, then he went limp, and less than a second later burkman let go and rolled him over. no one is going to stop that from there unless either:
- the fighter taps
- the fighter goes out/limp

fitch went limp and immediately burkman let go. exactly when was mazzagati supposed to stop it?

whole lot of bandwagoning going on.
Mazz never even made an attempt to move in to stop the fight he just stood there playin with himself! Phone Post 3.0
6/15/13 11:01 AM
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WestCoastKid
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All I'm saying is that basically, 99% of you have never fought MMA let alone reffed any type of combat sports under the type of criticism and scrutiny that these PRO referees are under on a constant basis
6/15/13 11:10 AM
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UGCTT Molsonmuscle360
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The thing that pissed me off about the way Maz acted was that there was no urgency with him. You need to be checking on a fighter when he's in a deep choke, not standing 3 feet away, and when Burkman jumped off, Maz just kinda waltzed over slowly and waved it off....You need to be on the ball all the time if you are reffing any sport.
6/15/13 11:12 AM
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BJ_Penmanship
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dfw jr - NSAC needs to wake up and get rid of this guy before he hurts someone. I don't know how anyone this incompetent can keep a job like this!!!? Powers that be need to put ego aside and get rid of him ASAP Phone Post
Same reason Adelaide Bird is still judging...

Same reason a scum ball like Armando Garcia was head of the... Oh wait... Doesn't he work for Zuffa now? Phone Post 3.0
6/15/13 11:15 AM
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TX_432
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If Josh is smart he will stay over at wsof to increase his value. Phone Post
6/15/13 11:22 AM
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Kerouac
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lurkingveteran - 
lurkingveteran - People are getting distracted by the fact Mazagatti couldnt of stopped it faster than the 1.5 seconds it took before Burkman lets go, THIS IS NOT THE POINT!

Assume Burkman like 95pc of fighters doesnt let go until the ref stops it. Mazzagatti is not even considering the possibility that Fitch could be in trouble let alone out when he is in fact UNCONSCIOUS.

Then we have potentially the time to get down on the ground to check how bad it is and if the choke is tight...then actually check if Fitch is attempting to defend ..then if Fitch is limp..then actually touch Fitch to confirm ..and them pull Burkmam off. This could take one second to do but it MAY take another 5-10 seconds, it is POSSIBLE.

So because the ref was not positioned and prepared close to the submission it could of been 6-11 seconds of time with no blood to the brain which MAY of caused serious damage.

IN MMA we need to reduce the probability of a serious injury occuring, its not about certainty its about reducing the possibility of injury and Mazzagatti CLEARLY did not do this.

It is not complicated, the refereeing here was fcking scandalous! Phone Post 3.0
And lets look at maths, assume 90 percent of fighters would be fine for being out that amount if time and lets assume 90 percent of thr time Mazzagatti would of got down to stop it rapidly even though not close to the action.

Fine right...

No cos that means thats 1/10 chance x 1/10 chance which means its only 1/100 chance that someone could be fatally or seriously injured in that situation. That would be end of that persons life and the end of MMA.

We dont gamble with odds like that upto 10000-1 on things as serious as that if they can be AVOIDED! Phone Post 3.0

More like 1 million seconds...

lol @ 6 to 11 seconds.

What the fuck are you guys on?

Fitch got caught with a hard punch, Josh pounced on him, there was a scramble...oh jesus christ, just watch the fight in real time again and tell me how Mazz could have suddenly jumped on the other side of them.

Again, he was definitely laid back after Josh let go of the guillotine, but even if he was on the right side, he wouldn't have been able to react faster than Josh let go of it.
6/15/13 11:29 AM
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Micheal McKenzietine
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I guess Josh's bionic arm courtesy of the young assassin break is hitting harder than Brett Rogers hits his wife "allegedly" Phone Post 3.0
6/15/13 11:32 AM
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Kerouac
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Kerouac -
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lurkingveteran - People are getting distracted by the fact Mazagatti couldnt of stopped it faster than the 1.5 seconds it took before Burkman lets go, THIS IS NOT THE POINT!

Assume Burkman like 95pc of fighters doesnt let go until the ref stops it. Mazzagatti is not even considering the possibility that Fitch could be in trouble let alone out when he is in fact UNCONSCIOUS.

Then we have potentially the time to get down on the ground to check how bad it is and if the choke is tight...then actually check if Fitch is attempting to defend ..then if Fitch is limp..then actually touch Fitch to confirm ..and them pull Burkmam off. This could take one second to do but it MAY take another 5-10 seconds, it is POSSIBLE.

So because the ref was not positioned and prepared close to the submission it could of been 6-11 seconds of time with no blood to the brain which MAY of caused serious damage.

IN MMA we need to reduce the probability of a serious injury occuring, its not about certainty its about reducing the possibility of injury and Mazzagatti CLEARLY did not do this.

It is not complicated, the refereeing here was fcking scandalous! Phone Post 3.0
And lets look at maths, assume 90 percent of fighters would be fine for being out that amount if time and lets assume 90 percent of thr time Mazzagatti would of got down to stop it rapidly even though not close to the action.

Fine right...

No cos that means thats 1/10 chance x 1/10 chance which means its only 1/100 chance that someone could be fatally or seriously injured in that situation. That would be end of that persons life and the end of MMA.

We dont gamble with odds like that upto 10000-1 on things as serious as that if they can be AVOIDED! Phone Post 3.0

More like 1 million seconds...

lol @ 6 to 11 seconds.

What the fuck are you guys on?

Fitch got caught with a hard punch, Josh pounced on him, there was a scramble...oh jesus christ, just watch the fight in real time again and tell me how Mazz could have suddenly jumped on the other side of them.

Again, he was definitely laid back after Josh let go of the guillotine, but even if he was on the right side, he wouldn't have been able to react faster than Josh let go of it.
Ok Maz whatever you say. Phone Post 3.0

Hughesrollseyes.gif

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