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UnderGround Forums >> French judo champion Teddy Riner in MMA


7/15/13 11:44 PM
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OCJudoTrngCtr
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Riner will go down as one of the greatest heavyweight judo champions of all time. I am skeptical that it would necessarily transfer over to MMA.

7/15/13 11:48 PM
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Unseen
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YouCantHandleMyRiddum - 
Unseen - 300 pounds with under 10% body fat. How the hell would he come close to 265? Phone Post 3.0

To be fair, he probably sweats out 20 lbs after an intense workout.


307 is his copetition weight that he cuts to.

 

7/16/13 1:01 AM
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Wasa-B
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OCJudoTrngCtr - 

Riner will go down as one of the greatest heavyweight judo champions of all time. I am skeptical that it would necessarily transfer over to MMA.


He's already the GOAT HW and arguably GOAT P4P in terms of titles for men, is he not? And he's still only in his mid-20s, right?
7/16/13 1:02 AM
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Wasa-B
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^ But, i dont think his size and judo style translate to MMA.
7/16/13 1:02 AM
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Wasa-B
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stevekt - 
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He has no interest in MMA and thinks it is morally bankrupt

 

I'm sure he is athletic and talented enough to become a real star... but if he doesn't want to fight, it is all moot

Morally bankrupt = Scurred Frenchman Phone Post 3.0
To be fair though, we are talking about Fedor here - he broke just about everyone's face. And he was a hell of a Judoka himself - they just call it Sumbo over in mother Russia.

Teddy has no desire to come to MMA - why would he - where's the upside? 8/8 for his first fight? He prolly makes more at a seminar. This is the sort of talent the UFC and MMA in general are missing out on because the UFC are shortchanging their fighters. Phone Post 3.0
Judo is not the same as Sumbo. Sumbo is Sumo plus Boxing. Phone Post

Sumbo Baby
7/16/13 1:48 AM
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Elvis
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For FrateCart





 

7/16/13 8:42 AM
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Larry Appleton
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he could be an NFL lineman for Cripe's sake Phone Post 3.0
7/17/13 6:47 PM
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QTyp
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I'd to see him show interest in trying MMA, but use the excuse that he couldn't make the 265lb limit. Maybe that will help get rid of that asinine regulation. It is silly that some HWs have to cut weight.
7/17/13 6:57 PM
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IP
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How the hell does he find suitable training partners? Does he start on his knees?
7/17/13 7:36 PM
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Wasa-B
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QTyp - I'd to see him show interest in trying MMA, but use the excuse that he couldn't make the 265lb limit. Maybe that will help get rid of that asinine regulation. It is silly that some HWs have to cut weight.

In judo, the class before HW is 100kg or 220lbs. So if in MMA, they got rid of the 265lb limit, would they add another class between 205 and and 280 monster like Riner?
7/17/13 8:13 PM
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Unseen
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Wasa-B - 
QTyp - I'd to see him show interest in trying MMA, but use the excuse that he couldn't make the 265lb limit. Maybe that will help get rid of that asinine regulation. It is silly that some HWs have to cut weight.

In judo, the class before HW is 100kg or 220lbs. So if in MMA, they got rid of the 265lb limit, would they add another class between 205 and and 280 monster like Riner?

Yeah, I think most people want a cruiser weight division, but some can't agree on the weight.  206-220is what I hear most.

7/17/13 9:02 PM
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judom
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Riner would never come to MMA.

The key point though is that UFC is not yet attracting the type of world class athletes that they should.

Judo is full of beasts, and is IMO, a fantsatic to build on for today's MMA rules. If you are great in Judo and start to cross over before 25, you can pick up anything, wrestling, bjj, greco, etc (to the level you need to win in MMA).

But UFC is not popular in Europe at all, there is no prestige in it. So UFC can't recruit from that pool. I am always shocked when I occasionally train a little more intensely, so come in contact with dudes who won recent Judo world cups. Those guys are total beasts, and very young too. Think NCAA D-1 champions or better, Hector Lombard 12 years ago. These are some bad bad dudes. Athletic levels are off the hook.

And I've asked them about MMA and they said: its cool, but there is no good places where they live to go and train a little bit. The young guys like it, but really there is 0 infrastructure for MMA . There are many local small gyms, but not real top gyms. And the top guys want to train with people like ATT, AKA type teams, etc. Hopefully it changes in the future.

7/17/13 11:20 PM
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Wasa-B
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judom - 

Riner would never come to MMA.

The key point though is that UFC is not yet attracting the type of world class athletes that they should.

Judo is full of beasts, and is IMO, a fantsatic to build on for today's MMA rules. If you are great in Judo and start to cross over before 25, you can pick up anything, wrestling, bjj, greco, etc (to the level you need to win in MMA).

But UFC is not popular in Europe at all, there is no prestige in it. So UFC can't recruit from that pool. I am always shocked when I occasionally train a little more intensely, so come in contact with dudes who won recent Judo world cups. Those guys are total beasts, and very young too. Think NCAA D-1 champions or better, Hector Lombard 12 years ago. These are some bad bad dudes. Athletic levels are off the hook.

And I've asked them about MMA and they said: its cool, but there is no good places where they live to go and train a little bit. The young guys like it, but really there is 0 infrastructure for MMA . There are many local small gyms, but not real top gyms. And the top guys want to train with people like ATT, AKA type teams, etc. Hopefully it changes in the future.


judom, where you been lately?

what do you think about riner's size and style for MMA? I dont think it would translate that well - too big, too gi reliant imo.
7/18/13 1:36 AM
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justinthevikingwren
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GreatCornholio - Let him go a decade undefeated before we call him Karelin. Phone Post 3.0
OVER A DECADE! Phone Post
7/18/13 1:38 AM
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justinthevikingwren
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raags -

He has no interest in MMA and thinks it is morally bankrupt

 

I'm sure he is athletic and talented enough to become a real star... but if he doesn't want to fight, it is all moot

Morally bankrupt?

Sounds like he just wants to have a reason not to try it. I'm all for guys not wanting to fight if they don't want to... Just don't put something down in the process because your lack of desire... It might even be fear in him because of that response. Think about it, the guy is used to being so incredibly dominant and winning, winning, and more winning. Now think about having to go back to square one in multiple sports and having all the questions like that go beyond "will I be good at it" or "what if I lose" like "will I be the absolute best in the world at it" or "what if I don't have a chin and get embarrassed "

If your confident in not having an interest then just stick to that, and humbly/casually say "I'm not really interested."

It should be humbling or an honor that people have such respect, interest, and faith in his ability and talent without a single day of him specifically training for an MMA fight. The only reason i see taking jabs at MMA as a sport is if it's a fear or pride based response. Phone Post
7/18/13 1:44 AM
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justinthevikingwren
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justinthevikingwren -
raags -

He has no interest in MMA and thinks it is morally bankrupt

 

I'm sure he is athletic and talented enough to become a real star... but if he doesn't want to fight, it is all moot

Morally bankrupt?

Sounds like he just wants to have a reason not to try it. I'm all for guys not wanting to fight if they don't want to... Just don't put something down in the process because your lack of desire... It might even be fear in him because of that response. Think about it, the guy is used to being so incredibly dominant and winning, winning, and more winning. Now think about having to go back to square one in multiple sports and having all the questions like that go beyond "will I be good at it" or "what if I lose" like "will I be the absolute best in the world at it" or "what if I don't have a chin and get embarrassed "

If your confident in not having an interest then just stick to that, and humbly/casually say "I'm not really interested."

It should be humbling or an honor that people have such respect, interest, and faith in his ability and talent without a single day of him specifically training for an MMA fight. The only reason i see taking jabs at MMA as a sport is if it's a fear or pride based response. Phone Post
I'm just speculating but maybe he feels a need to prove to everyone else or even specifically himself that he really doesn't have interest in it... Saying it's morally corrupt is a cop out... Everyone close to grappling, especially FILA knows that international wrestling and judo are morally corrupt. More so than MMA. Our refs aren't being bribed by our combatants or their teams to throw the fight with bad calls.

Think about it... This guy is a WORLD CHAMPION for a grappling sport. Not having an interest is one thing... But how can him of all people have a clear distaste, hate, and lack of respect for a disciplined sport that COMBINES his Olympic sport, with other Olympic sports of grappling, striking, etc. You'd think he'd be a fan or at least respect MMA... I think him being vocal about this or that exposes some sort of insecurity. You can be completely confident in yourself because you are the wiles champion in one sport... But when punches start flyin there is a lot of unknowns.

Again, just speculating. I guess I just didn't appreciate a skilled champion having cheap words spew from his mouth.

Anyone agree or disagree? Phone Post
7/18/13 1:44 AM
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SmileyNY1985
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Good read. Phone Post
7/18/13 1:47 AM
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QTyp
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Wasa-B - 
QTyp - I'd to see him show interest in trying MMA, but use the excuse that he couldn't make the 265lb limit. Maybe that will help get rid of that asinine regulation. It is silly that some HWs have to cut weight.

In judo, the class before HW is 100kg or 220lbs. So if in MMA, they got rid of the 265lb limit, would they add another class between 205 and and 280 monster like Riner?

Yeah, I think most people want a cruiser weight division, but some can't agree on the weight.  206-220is what I hear most.


This. I'd be happy with something like cruiser-weight class of 200-220lbs. 205 was only made by UFC back in the day to cater to Tito. HW would be 220-unlimited. Yes, I know guys like Cain could cut and be champ in both CW and HW.
7/18/13 8:03 AM
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georgejonesjr
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stevekt - 
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He has no interest in MMA and thinks it is morally bankrupt

 

I'm sure he is athletic and talented enough to become a real star... but if he doesn't want to fight, it is all moot

Morally bankrupt = Scurred Frenchman Phone Post 3.0
To be fair though, we are talking about Fedor here - he broke just about everyone's face. And he was a hell of a Judoka himself - they just call it Sumbo over in mother Russia.

Teddy has no desire to come to MMA - why would he - where's the upside? 8/8 for his first fight? He prolly makes more at a seminar. This is the sort of talent the UFC and MMA in general are missing out on because the UFC are shortchanging their fighters. Phone Post 3.0
Judo is not the same as Sumbo. Sumbo is Sumo plus Boxing. Phone Post

Combat sambo is different than judo all right.

However, even in terms of judo, Fedor was on the Russian national judo team (2nd best team in the world at the time behind Japan). He placed 3rd in the Russian HW judo championships (the winner was the world champ). He won medals in A-level international judo tournaments.

Fedor's pure judo was better than Karo's, and his international judo record was a lot better than Karo's.

Not that what made Fedor great in MMA was his judo, but give the man his due, he was a very good (as in top 20 in the world, possibly top 10) judoka as well. There have only been a handful of judoka in MMA with a better judo record than Fedor, and most of them were already old and past it in judo days when they started MMA.

Yoshida for instance won his Olympic gold in judo in 1992 at 173 pounds. Started MMA in 2002 at HW (no, he didn't put on 50 pounds of muscle) when he could no longer win any international level judo matches. Nastula was Olympic gold in 96, started MMA mid-2000's when he couldn't win in judo. The number of judo people who started MMA while still young and who had a better judo record than Fedor is pretty small - Ischii of course, Rousey, and probably a couple of others I can't think of at the moment.

7/18/13 5:15 PM
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judom
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Wasa-B,

Not sure his would transfer well to MMA.

What georgejonesjr is saying is correct: there are very very few really top judokas coming to MMA in their prime. May be Fedor, Ishii, Rousey and thats about it.

Its a hugely untapped pool of super athletes. I've been training a little more judo recently and doing occasional randoris with international level players that compete currently, when my body holds up (I can do it as I am friends with several European national team judo coaches and i occasionally drop by and train with the team).

UFC is very far in terms of recruiting top talent. Right now its a pretty regional show: U.S. , Brazil, and few other countries for fun, and roughly thats about it.

Recently they got Rustam, Khabib, etc who are still nowhere remotely close to the talent found in international Judo, but are doing well in the UFC.

so yeah...Riner is an example, but there are tons more.
7/18/13 5:17 PM
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judom
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btw, I personally don't like Riner's attitude. He was actually pretty ineffective against Mihailin in the finals. That said, the dude is massive. He would be a beast in any sport.
7/28/13 2:22 AM
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MEOWticket
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judom - btw, I personally don't like Riner's attitude. He was actually pretty ineffective against Mihailin in the finals. That said, the dude is massive. He would be a beast in any sport.
"btw, I personally don't like Riner's attitude."

I agree 200% with this comment. Phone Post
7/28/13 11:46 AM
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judomf
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TR is an incredible physical specimen, but he has limited judo technical skills and leverages his size and conditioning, which is not uncommon for judoka his size.

Also, he has been beaten before, and exhibited poor sportsmanship which lost him a lot of fans in the Judo community. He is comfortable with Judo and would be exposed in MMA; he also simply doesn't have the warrior ethos that some guys who are just natural fighters have ...

7/28/13 12:10 PM
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Mertvaya Ruka
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justinthevikingwren - 
justinthevikingwren -
raags -

He has no interest in MMA and thinks it is morally bankrupt

 

I'm sure he is athletic and talented enough to become a real star... but if he doesn't want to fight, it is all moot

Morally bankrupt?

Sounds like he just wants to have a reason not to try it. I'm all for guys not wanting to fight if they don't want to... Just don't put something down in the process because your lack of desire... It might even be fear in him because of that response. Think about it, the guy is used to being so incredibly dominant and winning, winning, and more winning. Now think about having to go back to square one in multiple sports and having all the questions like that go beyond "will I be good at it" or "what if I lose" like "will I be the absolute best in the world at it" or "what if I don't have a chin and get embarrassed "

If your confident in not having an interest then just stick to that, and humbly/casually say "I'm not really interested."

It should be humbling or an honor that people have such respect, interest, and faith in his ability and talent without a single day of him specifically training for an MMA fight. The only reason i see taking jabs at MMA as a sport is if it's a fear or pride based response. Phone Post
I'm just speculating but maybe he feels a need to prove to everyone else or even specifically himself that he really doesn't have interest in it... Saying it's morally corrupt is a cop out... Everyone close to grappling, especially FILA knows that international wrestling and judo are morally corrupt. More so than MMA. Our refs aren't being bribed by our combatants or their teams to throw the fight with bad calls.

Think about it... This guy is a WORLD CHAMPION for a grappling sport. Not having an interest is one thing... But how can him of all people have a clear distaste, hate, and lack of respect for a disciplined sport that COMBINES his Olympic sport, with other Olympic sports of grappling, striking, etc. You'd think he'd be a fan or at least respect MMA... I think him being vocal about this or that exposes some sort of insecurity. You can be completely confident in yourself because you are the wiles champion in one sport... But when punches start flyin there is a lot of unknowns.

Again, just speculating. I guess I just didn't appreciate a skilled champion having cheap words spew from his mouth.

Anyone agree or disagree? Phone Post

agreed justin :)
7/28/13 1:55 PM
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dakotajudo
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justinthevikingwren - 
raags -

He has no interest in MMA and thinks it is morally bankrupt

 

I'm sure he is athletic and talented enough to become a real star... but if he doesn't want to fight, it is all moot

Morally bankrupt?

Sounds like he just wants to have a reason not to try it. I'm all for guys not wanting to fight if they don't want to... Just don't put something down in the process because your lack of desire... It might even be fear in him because of that response. Think about it, the guy is used to being so incredibly dominant and winning, winning, and more winning. Now think about having to go back to square one in multiple sports and having all the questions like that go beyond "will I be good at it" or "what if I lose" like "will I be the absolute best in the world at it" or "what if I don't have a chin and get embarrassed "

If your confident in not having an interest then just stick to that, and humbly/casually say "I'm not really interested."

It should be humbling or an honor that people have such respect, interest, and faith in his ability and talent without a single day of him specifically training for an MMA fight. The only reason i see taking jabs at MMA as a sport is if it's a fear or pride based response. Phone Post

If you want to speculate about what Riner might mean by "morally bankrupt", you might want to consider some of the historical, philosophical underpinnings of judo. 

From http://www.japanupdate.com/archive/index.php?id=2141 (sorry, but I can't find the origin of the quoted text just now).

"“It’s no reflection on any of you, but nowadays few men of good character would pursue an interest in Ju Jutsu for long. Those who do are generally roughnecks, men who are fond of fighting or who don’t have enough mental discipline to get an education. My own belief is that Ju Jutsu training should improve a man’s character as well as his physical powers. I hope you agree. In my opinion, the ideal should be to prevent fights, to promote education and to cultivate good manners and civilized behavior. From today, we will no longer practice Ju Jutsu. We will practice something new, which we will call Judo."

and

"The second reason was that when I began to teach, 'jujitsu' had fallen into disrepute. Some jujitsu masters made their living by organizing troupes composed of their followers, and putting on exhibition matches to which admission fees were charged. Others went so far as to stage bouts between professional Sumo wrestlers and jujitsu men. Such degrading practices of prostituting a martial art were repugnant to me so I avoided the term jujitsu and adopted judo in its stead. Then, to distinguish (sic) it from the 'Jikishin Ryu' employed also the term Judo, I called my school the 'Kodokan Judo', though the title is rather long."

How does this description of the state of jujutsu compare with the current state of MMA?

You can read further of the moral basis of judo at

http://judoinfo.com/new/alphabetical-list/principles-of-kodokan-judo/379-the-contribution-of-judo-to-education

http://judoinfo.com/new/alphabetical-list/principles-of-kodokan-judo/380-the-contribution-of-judo-to-education-2

Perhaps Riner is wrong to state that MMA is morally bankrupt, but this statement is consistent with the philosophy of judo (whether the current status of Olympic judo is consistent, that would be a different debate); it's not necessarily out of pride or fear.

 


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