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BJJGround Forum >> No gi grading


9/4/13 11:56 PM
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RockTheVote
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Edited: 09/04/13 11:56 PM
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triple post

9/5/13 8:21 AM
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Animal Mother
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Subzero90 -
Sgt. Slaphead - No-gi is a part of fundamental jiujitsu skill, to not do it is a disservice to the student. To only do no-gi is a disservice to the art/ No-gi only, is not BJJ....it can be a of jiujitsu, but IMHO it is not BJJ. Same as there is no such thing a no-gi judo. JMHO.

For several years after I made blue belt (w/gi) I didn't care, I was only really interested in learning fighting skill using jiujitsu as a foundation on which I could add other skills/techniques. Then I figured out that the gi offered the same benefits and much broader useful skill, and made training interesting and enjoyable again.

Honestly the gi offers no benefit to a persons nogi game, other than lacklustre over hooks and under hooks.  If a person spent 100% of their time doing nogi they'll inevitably have a better nogi game than if they split time.  They are different sports.

This has ben proven false. Phone Post 3.0
9/5/13 8:24 AM
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Animal Mother
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Tomato Can - "I think the gi is a big deal because it slows everything way down, allowing the smaller/weaker people to defeat people easier because applying technique is easier"

Where in the holy hell do people get this idea? I am a small guy and I find the gi to be MUCH more difficult against larger opponents. Yes, I have grips in the gi, but larger guys have BETTER, STRONGER grips, that are harder to break. The idea that the gi makes it easy for the small guy is complete and utter nonsense.
No it's not. If you believe that you don't understand grips. Phone Post 3.0
9/5/13 9:44 AM
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Tomato Can
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Animal Mother - 
Tomato Can - "I think the gi is a big deal because it slows everything way down, allowing the smaller/weaker people to defeat people easier because applying technique is easier"

Where in the holy hell do people get this idea? I am a small guy and I find the gi to be MUCH more difficult against larger opponents. Yes, I have grips in the gi, but larger guys have BETTER, STRONGER grips, that are harder to break. The idea that the gi makes it easy for the small guy is complete and utter nonsense.
No it's not. If you believe that you don't understand grips. Phone Post 3.0

Yes, it is, and yes, I do. The idea that grips are somehow a great equalizer is poppycock. Watch Gabi Garcia vs. Nyjah Easton for reference.
9/5/13 10:24 AM
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Animal Mother
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Tomato Can -
Animal Mother - 
Tomato Can - "I think the gi is a big deal because it slows everything way down, allowing the smaller/weaker people to defeat people easier because applying technique is easier"

Where in the holy hell do people get this idea? I am a small guy and I find the gi to be MUCH more difficult against larger opponents. Yes, I have grips in the gi, but larger guys have BETTER, STRONGER grips, that are harder to break. The idea that the gi makes it easy for the small guy is complete and utter nonsense.
No it's not. If you believe that you don't understand grips. Phone Post 3.0

Yes, it is, and yes, I do. The idea that grips are somehow a great equalizer is poppycock. Watch Gabi Garcia vs. Nyjah Easton for reference.
That's a horrible example, Gabbi Garcia is not only bigger but better than Nyjah. Just because you're smaller doesn't mean you can win a grip fight. Even though you don't train in the gi, it's amazing to me that someone who trains under Marcelo would say such a thing. Why don't you ask him about it. Phone Post 3.0
9/5/13 10:34 AM
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Animal Mother
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*can't Phone Post 3.0
9/5/13 11:20 AM
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Tomato Can
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Animal Mother - 
Tomato Can -
Animal Mother - 
Tomato Can - "I think the gi is a big deal because it slows everything way down, allowing the smaller/weaker people to defeat people easier because applying technique is easier"

Where in the holy hell do people get this idea? I am a small guy and I find the gi to be MUCH more difficult against larger opponents. Yes, I have grips in the gi, but larger guys have BETTER, STRONGER grips, that are harder to break. The idea that the gi makes it easy for the small guy is complete and utter nonsense.
No it's not. If you believe that you don't understand grips. Phone Post 3.0

Yes, it is, and yes, I do. The idea that grips are somehow a great equalizer is poppycock. Watch Gabi Garcia vs. Nyjah Easton for reference.
That's a horrible example, Gabbi Garcia is not only bigger but better than Nyjah. Just because you're smaller doesn't mean you can win a grip fight. Even though you don't train in the gi, it's amazing to me that someone who trains under Marcelo would say such a thing. Why don't you ask him about it. Phone Post 3.0

It's not a horrible example at all. Once Gabi is able to grip up, Nyjah just gets fucking ragdolled. Gabi's snapdowns practically put Nyjah into a faceplant.

Smaller guys can win gripfights, but it's certainly not the norm. Cobrinha did it regularly but he's the exception, as he is a ludicrous athlete with freakish grip strength that probably rivals most HWs. In matches between 2 average joe BJJers, the smaller guy is generally going to want to play keep away and avoid the bigger guys grips at all costs. I mean, you honestly can't tell me that the average 150 pounder's grips are going to be as powerful or as difficult to break as the average 200 pounder's.

I didn't come to this conclusion overnight. I've been grappling for 12 years and up until a year ago I trained in the gi regularly. I think most of the perception that grips make it easier for the little guy are based on the idea that if you're gi-savvy, wearing the gi will make it easier against a big goon of a white belt. But if that big goon is of your own skill/experience level, it's far from an advantage.
9/5/13 7:56 PM
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Soul Gravy
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Is it seriously being questioned that a 200lb man will have an advantage in gi grips over a 150lb man? Or that he will be able to exert more force once he establishes those grips? Has this sport suddenly moved beyond the realm of physics?

I also disagree with the idea that no gi automatically means shoddy technique, utilizing sweat to slip out of submissions, etc. Consider this: a no gi guy will have a much tougher time controlling a limb due to the lack of convenient grips. Which means his technique is going to have to be that much more technical to achieve and maintain those positions/submissions.
9/6/13 4:51 PM
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Animal Mother
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Soul Gravy - Is it seriously being questioned that a 200lb man will have an advantage in gi grips over a 150lb man? Or that he will be able to exert more force once he establishes those grips? Has this sport suddenly moved beyond the realm of physics?

I also disagree with the idea that no gi automatically means shoddy technique, utilizing sweat to slip out of submissions, etc. Consider this: a no gi guy will have a much tougher time controlling a limb due to the lack of convenient grips. Which means his technique is going to have to be that much more technical to achieve and maintain those positions/submissions.
No, it's not although Tomato doesn't seem to understand what I'm saying. It's being argued that a superior grip can certainly make it much harder for a better athlete, bigger opponent to gain an advantageous position on you. No one is saying it's the great equalizer or the be all end all of Jiu Jitsu. It is much greater advantage in a gi for a smaller guy, and that's painfully obvious. Phone Post 3.0
9/6/13 4:59 PM
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Tomato Can
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You're not making any sense. How frequently will an inferior athlete with a size disadvantage, at a comparable skill level as his opponent, have a "superior grip"?

Almost never is the answer.
9/6/13 5:09 PM
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Soul Gravy
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Animal Mother - 
Soul Gravy - Is it seriously being questioned that a 200lb man will have an advantage in gi grips over a 150lb man? Or that he will be able to exert more force once he establishes those grips? Has this sport suddenly moved beyond the realm of physics?

I also disagree with the idea that no gi automatically means shoddy technique, utilizing sweat to slip out of submissions, etc. Consider this: a no gi guy will have a much tougher time controlling a limb due to the lack of convenient grips. Which means his technique is going to have to be that much more technical to achieve and maintain those positions/submissions.
No, it's not although Tomato doesn't seem to understand what I'm saying. It's being argued that a superior grip can certainly make it much harder for a better athlete, bigger opponent to gain an advantageous position on you. No one is saying it's the great equalizer or the be all end all of Jiu Jitsu. It is much greater advantage in a gi for a smaller guy, and that's painfully obvious. Phone Post 3.0

A small guy with a great grip vs. a big guy with a less than ideal grip...still swings in favor of the big guy. A big guy with a shoddy grip will still be able to exert far more force than a smaller guy with anything less than the most optimal grip possible. And probably even then the big guy will be able to power through.
9/6/13 10:11 PM
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Animal Mother
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Yeah, I'm gonna have to remind the brown/black belts that I outweigh by 20-30lbs of this next time we roll. Complete nonsense. Phone Post 3.0
9/6/13 10:12 PM
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Animal Mother
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Soul Gravy what belt are you and where do you train? I'm just curious about how you come to these conclusions. Phone Post 3.0
9/6/13 10:30 PM
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MTH
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Animal Mother - Yeah, I'm gonna have to remind the brown/black belts that I outweigh by 20-30lbs of this next time we roll. Complete nonsense. Phone Post 3.0
But they're better than you regardless.

I can't tell if I just don't understand your point, or if you're just making no sense.

Greater size is an advantage, whether in no-gi or gi. Greater skill, fitness, heart, etc. are also advantages, whether in no-gi or gi.

If everything is equal other than size, the bigger guy should win. Part of the reason for that will be his superior grip strength. It's ridiculous to suggest that a bigger stronger guy isn't going to have a grip advantage in a match with an opponent who is his equal in all ways except size/strength.

Of course a smaller man who has far more skill than you could overcome your size advantage when it comes to gi grips or any other grappling issue. But that's because his skill advantage outweighs your size/strength advantage, not because the gi is some sort of equalizer for the smaller man.

If all things are equal except size/strength, the bigger/stronger guy will have a gripping advantage over the smaller guy, whether in gi or no-gi. Phone Post 3.0
9/7/13 1:08 AM
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RockTheVote
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Why would being bigger automatically equate to stronger grip? Are these bigger guys pulling themselves out of bed by gi sleeves bolted to their ceilings? What day to day activity are we universally engaging in that would cause a big guy to automatically have stronger forearms? I think it depends on your work. Our 150 lb guy is a mason, I bet his forearms are like steel cables and his grip is crushing. Our 200 lb guy works at a desk and his grip is probably pretty average. I don't think size equates to grip. Phone Post
9/7/13 8:39 AM
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MTH
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RockTheVote - Why would being bigger automatically equate to stronger grip? Are these bigger guys pulling themselves out of bed by gi sleeves bolted to their ceilings? What day to day activity are we universally engaging in that would cause a big guy to automatically have stronger forearms? I think it depends on your work. Our 150 lb guy is a mason, I bet his forearms are like steel cables and his grip is crushing. Our 200 lb guy works at a desk and his grip is probably pretty average. I don't think size equates to grip. Phone Post
The key is *all things being equal,* bigger is generally stronger.

Yes, if you have some fat slob white belt, his grips (and everything else) will pale in comparison to a fit, tough, black belt. But again, that doesn't mean the gi is somehow the black belt's equalizing feature--to the contrary, the black belt is jus better in every way.

When all other things are equal, bigger is stronger, and that includes stronger grips. If you take your 150 lb blue belt stone mason and pair him against a 250 lb blue belt stone mason, the 250 lber is going to have stronger grips and having the two of them be in gis is not going to provide the little guy with any sort of advantage. He'd be at about the same disadvantage as he'd be in no-gi. Phone Post 3.0
9/7/13 8:53 AM
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dojo stormer
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shit, i know guys i outweigh by over 20lbs who make me feel like a 8 year old girl strength wise.

personally i don't do no gi anymore as it jacks up my neck and i always come out of a no gi session feeling wrecked.
9/7/13 9:33 AM
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RockTheVote
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MTH -
RockTheVote - Why would being bigger automatically equate to stronger grip? Are these bigger guys pulling themselves out of bed by gi sleeves bolted to their ceilings? What day to day activity are we universally engaging in that would cause a big guy to automatically have stronger forearms? I think it depends on your work. Our 150 lb guy is a mason, I bet his forearms are like steel cables and his grip is crushing. Our 200 lb guy works at a desk and his grip is probably pretty average. I don't think size equates to grip. Phone Post
The key is *all things being equal,* bigger is generally stronger.

Yes, if you have some fat slob white belt, his grips (and everything else) will pale in comparison to a fit, tough, black belt. But again, that doesn't mean the gi is somehow the black belt's equalizing feature--to the contrary, the black belt is jus better in every way.

When all other things are equal, bigger is stronger, and that includes stronger grips. If you take your 150 lb blue belt stone mason and pair him against a 250 lb blue belt stone mason, the 250 lber is going to have stronger grips and having the two of them be in gis is not going to provide the little guy with any sort of advantage. He'd be at about the same disadvantage as he'd be in no-gi. Phone Post 3.0
Same grips, imo. Phone Post
9/7/13 9:45 AM
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MTH
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RockTheVote -
MTH -
RockTheVote - Why would being bigger automatically equate to stronger grip? Are these bigger guys pulling themselves out of bed by gi sleeves bolted to their ceilings? What day to day activity are we universally engaging in that would cause a big guy to automatically have stronger forearms? I think it depends on your work. Our 150 lb guy is a mason, I bet his forearms are like steel cables and his grip is crushing. Our 200 lb guy works at a desk and his grip is probably pretty average. I don't think size equates to grip. Phone Post
The key is *all things being equal,* bigger is generally stronger.

Yes, if you have some fat slob white belt, his grips (and everything else) will pale in comparison to a fit, tough, black belt. But again, that doesn't mean the gi is somehow the black belt's equalizing feature--to the contrary, the black belt is jus better in every way.

When all other things are equal, bigger is stronger, and that includes stronger grips. If you take your 150 lb blue belt stone mason and pair him against a 250 lb blue belt stone mason, the 250 lber is going to have stronger grips and having the two of them be in gis is not going to provide the little guy with any sort of advantage. He'd be at about the same disadvantage as he'd be in no-gi. Phone Post 3.0
Same grips, imo. Phone Post
Not even close. Have you ever grappled? Suggesting that, all things being equal, a 250 lber has the same grips as a 150 lber is beyond preposterous. Phone Post 3.0
9/7/13 10:15 AM
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Animal Mother
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MTH -
Animal Mother - Yeah, I'm gonna have to remind the brown/black belts that I outweigh by 20-30lbs of this next time we roll. Complete nonsense. Phone Post 3.0
But they're better than you regardless.

I can't tell if I just don't understand your point, or if you're just making no sense.

Greater size is an advantage, whether in no-gi or gi. Greater skill, fitness, heart, etc. are also advantages, whether in no-gi or gi.

If everything is equal other than size, the bigger guy should win. Part of the reason for that will be his superior grip strength. It's ridiculous to suggest that a bigger stronger guy isn't going to have a grip advantage in a match with an opponent who is his equal in all ways except size/strength.

Of course a smaller man who has far more skill than you could overcome your size advantage when it comes to gi grips or any other grappling issue. But that's because his skill advantage outweighs your size/strength advantage, not because the gi is some sort of equalizer for the smaller man.

If all things are equal except size/strength, the bigger/stronger guy will have a gripping advantage over the smaller guy, whether in gi or no-gi. Phone Post 3.0
The point is it's easier, not easy, to deal with a more bigger, athletic guy in a gi due to grips. That's it. There's no other point. Phone Post 3.0
9/7/13 10:28 AM
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Tomato Can
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RockTheVote -  Why would being bigger automatically equate to stronger grip? Are these bigger guys pulling themselves out of bed by gi sleeves bolted to their ceilings? What day to day activity are we universally engaging in that would cause a big guy to automatically have stronger forearms? I think it depends on your work. Our 150 lb guy is a mason, I bet his forearms are like steel cables and his grip is crushing. Our 200 lb guy works at a desk and his grip is probably pretty average. I don't think size equates to grip. Phone Post

It doesn't "automatically" equate to stronger grip but if you think there's no correlation between size and grip strength, you're insane.
9/7/13 10:31 AM
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Tomato Can
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Animal Mother - 
MTH -
Animal Mother - Yeah, I'm gonna have to remind the brown/black belts that I outweigh by 20-30lbs of this next time we roll. Complete nonsense. Phone Post 3.0
But they're better than you regardless.

I can't tell if I just don't understand your point, or if you're just making no sense.

Greater size is an advantage, whether in no-gi or gi. Greater skill, fitness, heart, etc. are also advantages, whether in no-gi or gi.

If everything is equal other than size, the bigger guy should win. Part of the reason for that will be his superior grip strength. It's ridiculous to suggest that a bigger stronger guy isn't going to have a grip advantage in a match with an opponent who is his equal in all ways except size/strength.

Of course a smaller man who has far more skill than you could overcome your size advantage when it comes to gi grips or any other grappling issue. But that's because his skill advantage outweighs your size/strength advantage, not because the gi is some sort of equalizer for the smaller man.

If all things are equal except size/strength, the bigger/stronger guy will have a gripping advantage over the smaller guy, whether in gi or no-gi. Phone Post 3.0
The point is it's easier, not easy, to deal with a more bigger, athletic guy in a gi due to grips. That's it. There's no other point. Phone Post 3.0

And my point is that that's only true if you're far more experienced with the gi than the big/strong guy, or if you have insane Cobrinha grips.
9/7/13 12:12 PM
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Animal Mother
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Tomato Can -
Animal Mother - 
MTH -
Animal Mother - Yeah, I'm gonna have to remind the brown/black belts that I outweigh by 20-30lbs of this next time we roll. Complete nonsense. Phone Post 3.0
But they're better than you regardless.

I can't tell if I just don't understand your point, or if you're just making no sense.

Greater size is an advantage, whether in no-gi or gi. Greater skill, fitness, heart, etc. are also advantages, whether in no-gi or gi.

If everything is equal other than size, the bigger guy should win. Part of the reason for that will be his superior grip strength. It's ridiculous to suggest that a bigger stronger guy isn't going to have a grip advantage in a match with an opponent who is his equal in all ways except size/strength.

Of course a smaller man who has far more skill than you could overcome your size advantage when it comes to gi grips or any other grappling issue. But that's because his skill advantage outweighs your size/strength advantage, not because the gi is some sort of equalizer for the smaller man.

If all things are equal except size/strength, the bigger/stronger guy will have a gripping advantage over the smaller guy, whether in gi or no-gi. Phone Post 3.0
The point is it's easier, not easy, to deal with a more bigger, athletic guy in a gi due to grips. That's it. There's no other point. Phone Post 3.0

And my point is that that's only true if you're far more experienced with the gi than the big/strong guy, or if you have insane Cobrinha grips.
You're point is wrong. You don't have to be far more experienced to make or maintain better grips. Phone Post 3.0
9/7/13 12:14 PM
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Animal Mother
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This isn't even worth debating really. Like I said, you should ask Marcelo his opinion. Phone Post 3.0
9/7/13 12:41 PM
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Hunter V
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lol Animal Mother you have to be trolling, you are saying you don't have to be more more experienced to make or maintain better grips? Esp when there is a size discrepancy? GTFO w that.

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