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8/28/13 1:59 PM
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robhustle
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I'm editing a combatives instructional video, and the techniques seem incredibly bad. For example, the guard pass they teach basically gives your opponent a triangle.

I can't believe this is just an oversight. There must be a rationale behind these choices. Anyone with experience care to shed some light?
8/28/13 2:07 PM
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UGCTT_Fillthy
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do they presume an unskilled adversary?

8/28/13 2:40 PM
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robhustle
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I'm not sure what the initial assumptions are. I know they talk about strike avoidance. But, the example I used is a guard pass, so they must assume that the opponent, at a minimum, knows what the guard is.

I found an instructional clip online that shows basically teh same pass I am talking about. It is here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-qZFigzQe0

8/28/13 2:55 PM
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UGCTT_Fillthy
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I agree that pulling one arm out is not a good idea.

Lots of people have seen enough UFC/MMA fights to know that 'whore-locking' with your legs is 'good'.  But that doesn't mean they have effective subs from the guard.  Posture, hoisting the hips, keeping the head above the knee, and reaching to the opposite shoulder will help block a triangle attempt.

8/28/13 7:37 PM
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Synado
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In older Gracie videos they taught a similar kind of guard pass. In the newer Gracie Combatives they teach a better guard pass.
8/28/13 7:55 PM
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GrahamJ
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I believe it's called 'The Gracie Gift'?
It's actually in Sasulo's book, and he mentions that you have to be careful not to raise the leg too far up you arm or 'you will die', ha.

http://bjjgreg.com/why-i-teach-the-rorion-gracie-gift-guard-pass-first/
8/28/13 7:56 PM
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GrahamJ
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vi3MNWlisV4
8/28/13 8:30 PM
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Hunter V
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the only purpose is to help in garnering warrior spirit, nothing more or less. Remember, they are not trying to make soldiers into high level bjj practitioners nor do they need to be. If soldiers get into hand to hand then shit has ROYALLY hit the fan. We win through squad tactics and firepower, not hand to hand. So its basic as shit as its not like these guys are going to be rolling for hrs each day, it serves its purpose.
8/28/13 8:45 PM
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shen
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Edited: 08/28/13 8:49 PM
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Well, it's just old fashioned Jiu-Jitsu, that's the real problem...

If the Army wants to stay current it needs update and incorporate newer innovations like Neck Scooting. Otherwise, our soldiers could be in for a nasty surprise on the modern battlefield.
8/28/13 11:51 PM
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FJJ828
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BJJ did one great thing for the Army with MACP... it got them to actually do H2H training. Before that they were learning a little bit of bad judo in the sawdust pit and possibly an occasional H2H workshop if you were lucky enough to be in a unit with an intructor. 99% of the Army didn't do any H2H after the sawdust pit in Basic Training. Now it is as much a part of installation athletics as the the monthly post "Runs" and most every unit has access to mats and qualified instructors. Even if it is less than ideal for the battlefield, it gives them basics of how to escape ground situations and the live training they need to really know it's gonna work for them.

Old school H2H guys hate it but will seldom admit that the stuff they liked, everyone else hated... and nobody practiced.

It could be a lot better but it HAS been a lot worse.

8/29/13 1:00 AM
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Jumbo Reverse Shrimp
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Back in my day they taught a few Judo throws. And yeah, it was in a saw dust pit. They should expand on that. This current combatives shit is a gimmick to get young guys' attention.

This USMC book from the '80s has better hand to hand techniques:

http://cdn.nexternal.com/glenns/images/USMC%20book.jpg


8/29/13 9:31 AM
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BandakaKush
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If you have good control over the bottom leg and hips than I doubt someone could put you into a triangle very easily. Army combative were derived from old school GJJ in part, are not designed to make you ADCC champion nor are they designed to make you UFC champion.
8/30/13 3:06 PM
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BJJER
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Had a guy show up to the academy just the other day who said he did combatives in the army. His technique was really bad. You could tell he sorta knew what he was doing but lacked the details. I think he was attempting to pass guard with the technique the OP mentions here and kept leacving his hand behind and not controlling the bottom leg. I triangled him a bunch of times.
8/30/13 4:27 PM
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MickColins
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If you do it correctly, you won't get triangled. Phone Post 3.0
8/30/13 5:17 PM
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angrypirate
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MickColins - If you do it correctly, you won't get triangled. Phone Post 3.0

this. The fact that it takes YEARS to be able to do this technique correctly is why most people give up on it.

There is a thread at least once a year on here about this pass and usually goes something like this:

"This pass is b.s! Does anyone actually use this anymore?"

someone posts this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4iMRlwvRxQ

"Well shit I guess it works..."







8/31/13 2:31 AM
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Ridgeback
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I think what would make sense for the military would be for every airman, sailor, and soldier to practice at least one combat sport whether that was boxing, judo, jiu-jitsu, wrestling, or muay thai.  The issue isn't having hand to hand combat skills, but the other things those combat sports can do for a warrior like conditioning, toughness, and building confidence.  I think the model of a short course with some techniques that won't be drilled to the point of reflex is a pretty big waste of resources.  They might as well spend two weeks working their shooting skills than doing that.  

I used to train with cadets at the air force academy and the stuff they were doing for combatives was just terrible (mainly it was for female cadets to do self-defense) but a lot of the cadets did judo or boxing or wrestling and it made a lot more sense as far as their overall training.  

8/31/13 4:14 AM
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DK Chaos
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Why not just punch, elbow, head-butt & bite the guy until he opens his guard and then pass? This is meant for soldiers in wars etc after all not bjj competitions
8/31/13 11:05 AM
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markus
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angrypirate - 
MickColins - If you do it correctly, you won't get triangled. Phone Post 3.0

this. The fact that it takes YEARS to be able to do this technique correctly is why most people give up on it.

There is a thread at least once a year on here about this pass and usually goes something like this:

"This pass is b.s! Does anyone actually use this anymore?"

someone posts this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4iMRlwvRxQ

"Well shit I guess it works..."








lol....really made me laugh.

this was helios guard pass. it was the first one taught back in the day. I was fortunate to have been in class with helio the day he taught this pass at gracie Torrance.

some key details are missing. but please keep in mind, this pass was meant to stop your opponent from kicking you in the face. (like renzon vs. oleg)

but jiujitsu is like that. we show you the large basic movement first...then later we add the small details, that make it invincible.

but, your post was funny. kind of sums up a bad day at jiujitsu.
8/31/13 6:54 PM
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FJJ828
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DK Chaos - Why not just punch, elbow, head-butt & bite the guy until he opens his guard and then pass? This is meant for soldiers in wars etc after all not bjj competitions

This question has been answered a thousand times already.

It is about layers of training, developing skills and confidence and providing a venue for continued athletic competition and esprit de corps. BJJ Grappling is phase 1. People like it because it is fun and relevant for self defense even if it is not the last word. People are able to pressure test it and develop confidence immediately, more so than anything else the Army has ever trained and it can be done relatively safely without the injuries associated with boxing and full contact MMA.

The old school combatives was ok for what it was, but there was no way to pressure test it. It was not fun or interesting except to the people teaching it and it was generally never practiced so it was of little use by itself. Good Combatives instructors will still talk about the survival oriented details after the students learn the techniques in a way that they can be trained and tested under pressure. What they don't do (and this is a good thing) is simply memorize techniques and practice them in a static environment like traditional martial arts. They start them off early on with stuff that is safe enough for sport but with the option of turning it up or adding nasty details to it.

Old school stuff was essentially bad judo and karate in the sawdust pit one or two days out of 8 weeks in boot camp. Everyone hated it and no one remembered anything unless they were already into MA.

9/1/13 9:05 PM
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m.g
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FJJ828,

Excellent post!
9/6/13 6:55 PM
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FJJ828
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m.g - FJJ828,

Excellent post!

Thanks, bro.

It still amazes me that people think that the Army is teaching the Guard pull as the go to move for the battlefield.

9/7/13 12:11 AM
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JRockwell
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FJJ828 -
DK Chaos - Why not just punch, elbow, head-butt & bite the guy until he opens his guard and then pass? This is meant for soldiers in wars etc after all not bjj competitions

This question has been answered a thousand times already.

It is about layers of training, developing skills and confidence and providing a venue for continued athletic competition and esprit de corps. BJJ Grappling is phase 1. People like it because it is fun and relevant for self defense even if it is not the last word. People are able to pressure test it and develop confidence immediately, more so than anything else the Army has ever trained and it can be done relatively safely without the injuries associated with boxing and full contact MMA.

The old school combatives was ok for what it was, but there was no way to pressure test it. It was not fun or interesting except to the people teaching it and it was generally never practiced so it was of little use by itself. Good Combatives instructors will still talk about the survival oriented details after the students learn the techniques in a way that they can be trained and tested under pressure. What they don't do (and this is a good thing) is simply memorize techniques and practice them in a static environment like traditional martial arts. They start them off early on with stuff that is safe enough for sport but with the option of turning it up or adding nasty details to it.

Old school stuff was essentially bad judo and karate in the sawdust pit one or two days out of 8 weeks in boot camp. Everyone hated it and no one remembered anything unless they were already into MA.

Voted up, great post. Phone Post 3.0
9/9/13 2:47 AM
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TOSH COOK
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I use and teach that pass often. This is the example I give:

Divide 2971 by 86. The easiest way to teach a young child how to solve this problem is to give them a calculator. If you make them do it long hand, it will take much longer. However, by doing it the "hard" way they are learning the fundamentals they will need later on for more advanced math. Things like remainders, square roots, powers, etc.

There are definitely safer passes for a new student. However, this pass forces you to learn how to stack, how to avoid getting your arm controlled, how to posture, etc. Once you are proficient at it, passing guard is actually easier if the bottom player goes for the triangle.

Are you going to get triangled more learning the stack pass? Yes. Is a child going to make more errors doing long division by hand? Yes. It all depends on your time horizons and goal. If you don't plan on advanced education, go ahead and grab that calculator. If you don't plan on reaching advanced ranks, don't practice the "gift" pass.


If you have long term jiu-jitsu goals and a long term time horizon to get there, it is one of the most important passes you will learn!
9/9/13 7:57 AM
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DK Chaos
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FJJ828 - 
DK Chaos - Why not just punch, elbow, head-butt & bite the guy until he opens his guard and then pass? This is meant for soldiers in wars etc after all not bjj competitions

This question has been answered a thousand times already.

It is about layers of training, developing skills and confidence and providing a venue for continued athletic competition and esprit de corps. BJJ Grappling is phase 1. People like it because it is fun and relevant for self defense even if it is not the last word. People are able to pressure test it and develop confidence immediately, more so than anything else the Army has ever trained and it can be done relatively safely without the injuries associated with boxing and full contact MMA.

The old school combatives was ok for what it was, but there was no way to pressure test it. It was not fun or interesting except to the people teaching it and it was generally never practiced so it was of little use by itself. Good Combatives instructors will still talk about the survival oriented details after the students learn the techniques in a way that they can be trained and tested under pressure. What they don't do (and this is a good thing) is simply memorize techniques and practice them in a static environment like traditional martial arts. They start them off early on with stuff that is safe enough for sport but with the option of turning it up or adding nasty details to it.

Old school stuff was essentially bad judo and karate in the sawdust pit one or two days out of 8 weeks in boot camp. Everyone hated it and no one remembered anything unless they were already into MA.


Thanks for the explanation, I didn't realise this. I thought army combatitives was just for battlefield/ war/ killing. Makes sense that they do it for sport, exercise etc as well.
9/9/13 1:24 PM
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MurdochIRL
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If you're interested in the role of jiu jitsu in police and military applications check out our interview with Mike Bland. I'm posting from my phone so I can't hyperlink but here is the address

http://www.openmatradio.com/2013/08/18/episode-80-mike-bland/ Phone Post 3.0

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