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BJJGround Forum >> Positive and Negative Energy when Rolling


8/31/13 2:01 AM
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shen
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Edited: 08/31/13 2:19 AM
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Usually I'd probably be more likely to make fun of someone who posts something like this, nonetheless...

I believe that as you grapple more you become more "sensitive" to the energy of other people. I think the same thing probably happens with people --like masseuses and Rolfers-- who do a lot of bodywork where they are physically touching others.

(BTW, If you ask me to precisely define "energy", I cannot, other than to say the physical sensation you get from others independent of mere mechanical forces.)

I'd say, most times when you roll with people it's pretty "neutral"; you don't even think about it. But, some people you just DO NOT like the energy you get from them the second you touch them. You make a mental note, "OK, don't work with that guy again." Others you maybe gravitate towards. You feel better after you roll with them, completely independent of the outcome of the roll. It's not about WHAT happens during the roll, it's just their energy. there is something "positive" about it even if they kill you or they are just clueless at rolling.

I know I've "locked up" with a couple GENUINELY crazy people and the energy was sorta like a TV on static. Didn't like it, at all.

--Do you guys have similar feelings/experiences... or, should I go get psychiatric consultation?

FWIW, I am NOT a particularly "spiritual" person. I don't read auras or anything like that. I'm definitely not very "new age" but, I guess I DO believe there IS something to the basic concept of positive and negative energies where people are involved.

What are your thoughts...?

Thanks!!!
8/31/13 2:32 AM
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Daniel/CGJJ
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When people are crazy or jerks that will express itself in the way their use their bodies. Forcing moves, spazzing, erratic movements. The opposite goes for people who are generally balanced.

I haven't had that particular 'energy' sensation you talk about. Phone Post 3.0
8/31/13 4:41 AM
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Calibur1980
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I get that feeling all the time and genuinely believe in it.

Positive and negative energy is a real thing, but there is nothing magical about it. Basically there's stuff that the human body picks up on subconsciously that the brain doesn't have the vocabulary to articulate.

If you roll with someone with malice or apprehension towards other people, their bodies will involuntarily tense up in different ways to people who are indifferent. I have no doubt that we can pick up on it if we have enough grappling experience. Sometimes ill roll with a very normal looking person and when I finish I'm like "wow, that dude has some darkness to him. :-/"

Again, it's not magic or ESP or whatever.

It's no different than recognizing someone with a fake smile or shifty eyes. Phone Post 3.0
8/31/13 4:44 AM
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Robobear
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Shen has reached the next level of invisible jiujitsu.  Respect.

But I know of what you are talking about.  We get a lot of military and MMA types who want to roll all the time.  I love and respect all veterans but some have a frantic energy; almost spastic, but not in an uncontrolled way.  I don't know if it's a style or cultural difference,(We're in Hawaii) but I can feel the energy.  We joke about it and talk it over with the other instructors and chalk it up as bad juju.  Some guys have a lot of combat experience in the middle east, some guys got a lot of pro fights, I don't know exactly what it is but it transfers to the mat.

8/31/13 5:13 AM
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blackmonkey
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Eric Paulson discusses this exact topic in depth on his rolled up episode- check it out on youtube he's an interesting dude.
Shows some killer reverse triangles from side control too.
8/31/13 6:04 AM
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TheBearStare
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Totally agree with this discussion. I know with teammates its very easy to tell when someone is having a good or bad week just with a roll. Jiujitsu is a very intimate thing as cheesy as it may sound. Phone Post
8/31/13 7:49 AM
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Zero1
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I think it´s absolutly true but it has nothing esoterical it´s the way humans are.

YOu express yourself through the body and the way you move, breath, your posture, etc.

When you touch someone it is the most honest connection to another person because it´s true. There is no artifical language that is created interlectually but the pure uncouncious expression of a person through his body...

That´s why the mental aspect of Jiu Jitsu is so important. You have to learn not just to deal with your own psyche but also with the energy of your opponent.....
8/31/13 10:46 AM
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UGCTT_Fillthy
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I think what we attribute to energy or vibe is actually our subconcious expressing the sum of millions of data points that our conscious minds are incapable of assessing cognitavely.  I think the same is true for premonitions or deja vu.  

I don't what to turn this in to a neurological thread, but the temporal lobe is responsible for assessing sensory inputs, recognizing patterns, and creating long-term memory.  Deep in the temporal lobe is a little almond-sized chunk called the amygdala, which provides input to the hypothalmus, which links our 'lizard' brain stem to our emotional 'monkey' mind (called the limbic system).  

I think that when we feel a vibe or energy from another person, we're experiencing a low-level 'amygdala hijack' (just google the phrase), where our brains have taken all sensory inputs - the sight of the facial expressions, the sound of their breathing, the smell of their sweat, the feel of their movement, etc and created an emotional fingerprint based on previous experiences.  This emtional underlayment is pushed to the conscious mind as an aggregrated 'vibe'.  As you become more experienced with BJJ, you get better at connecting to these emotions, vetting your vibes through other forms of social interaction.  Partner A generated this emotional tag, and he turned out be a giant douche.  Partner B gave me this emotional tag, and turned out to be a benevolant and charitable person.

FWIW - I still remember the people who gave me the strongest positive and negative energy.

8/31/13 12:19 PM
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Hywel Teague
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BJJ Hacks, free Arte Suave videos, Direct from Rio
Fillthy is getting VTFU when I get to my computer! Phone Post
8/31/13 1:06 PM
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mikehotel
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You can immediately tell when someone has trained before too, even before they do anything...as soon as you lock up. You can also tell guys who fight MMA too. Phone Post 3.0
8/31/13 1:25 PM
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deepu
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UGCTT_Fillthy - 

I think what we attribute to energy or vibe is actually our subconcious expressing the sum of millions of data points that our conscious minds are incapable of assessing cognitavely.  I think the same is true for premonitions or deja vu.  

I don't what to turn this in to a neurological thread, but the temporal lobe is responsible for assessing sensory inputs, recognizing patterns, and creating long-term memory.  Deep in the temporal lobe is a little almond-sized chunk called the amygdala, which provides input to the hypothalmus, which links our 'lizard' brain stem to our emotional 'monkey' mind (called the limbic system).  

I think that when we feel a vibe or energy from another person, we're experiencing a low-level 'amygdala hijack' (just google the phrase), where our brains have taken all sensory inputs - the sight of the facial expressions, the sound of their breathing, the smell of their sweat, the feel of their movement, etc and created an emotional fingerprint based on previous experiences.  This emtional underlayment is pushed to the conscious mind as an aggregrated 'vibe'.  As you become more experienced with BJJ, you get better at connecting to these emotions, vetting your vibes through other forms of social interaction.  Partner A generated this emotional tag, and he turned out be a giant douche.  Partner B gave me this emotional tag, and turned out to be a benevolant and charitable person.

FWIW - I still remember the people who gave me the strongest positive and negative energy.


VTFU!
8/31/13 1:52 PM
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shen
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Great posts!

Yes, I agree that you can often tell how "good" someone is when you touch them. Many times you touch someone and you can feel you are a lot better and other times you touch someone and go "uh oh". LOL. --You can just tell that they are good.

It sounds like most of us AGREE there IS such a thing, but how we explain it or what we ascribe it to may differ.
8/31/13 2:02 PM
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shen
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UGCTT_Fillthy - 

I think what we attribute to energy or vibe is actually our subconcious expressing the sum of millions of data points that our conscious minds are incapable of assessing cognitavely.  I think the same is true for premonitions or deja vu.  

I don't what to turn this in to a neurological thread, but the temporal lobe is responsible for assessing sensory inputs, recognizing patterns, and creating long-term memory.  Deep in the temporal lobe is a little almond-sized chunk called the amygdala, which provides input to the hypothalmus, which links our 'lizard' brain stem to our emotional 'monkey' mind (called the limbic system).  

I think that when we feel a vibe or energy from another person, we're experiencing a low-level 'amygdala hijack' (just google the phrase), where our brains have taken all sensory inputs - the sight of the facial expressions, the sound of their breathing, the smell of their sweat, the feel of their movement, etc and created an emotional fingerprint based on previous experiences.  This emtional underlayment is pushed to the conscious mind as an aggregrated 'vibe'.  As you become more experienced with BJJ, you get better at connecting to these emotions, vetting your vibes through other forms of social interaction.  Partner A generated this emotional tag, and he turned out be a giant douche.  Partner B gave me this emotional tag, and turned out to be a benevolant and charitable person.

FWIW - I still remember the people who gave me the strongest positive and negative energy.


Great post!!!

My GUESS is that's probably what's going on. But maybe it's more than that too.

I teach self-defense and we talk a lot about this type of thing (a "gut feeling", "bad vibe" or "intuition" about someone or something) as a built-in survival mechanism [ a la Gavin deBecker ("Gift of Fear")].



8/31/13 4:53 PM
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Snoozhitsu
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Even before you tie up with someone, you can just get a bad vibe. The mind picks up on all the subtle queues of body language, posture etc when the intellect does not. This is amplified when you're in physical contact and can feel the things hidden under clothes (ooh matron!)
8/31/13 5:26 PM
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Sgt. Slaphead
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Robobear - 

Shen has reached the next level of invisible jiujitsu.  Respect.

But I know of what you are talking about.  We get a lot of military and MMA types who want to roll all the time.  I love and respect all veterans but some have a frantic energy; almost spastic, but not in an uncontrolled way.  I don't know if it's a style or cultural difference,(We're in Hawaii) but I can feel the energy.  We joke about it and talk it over with the other instructors and chalk it up as bad juju.  Some guys have a lot of combat experience in the middle east, some guys got a lot of pro fights, I don't know exactly what it is but it transfers to the mat.


with the mil they have a "I must win" focus. That mental state is exhibited in the way they train and move. I've worked with a lot of young mil and I find myself chuckling while watching or training. They also have been conditioned to move with deliberate purpose in a lot of the things they do....does that make sense LOL!?!?!?

Then theres the young or FITAH or just ego-driven fucks that just want to win or not look bad....same result.
8/31/13 6:01 PM
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matthias
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Just read the first part of Gift of Fear. It seems like good info, I'll have to see if I can find it online Phone Post 3.0
8/31/13 6:28 PM
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Bull_in_chinashop
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That's not shoulder pressure you're feeling, that's me stealing your mana.  

9/1/13 12:17 AM
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shen
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Sgt. Slaphead - 
Robobear - 

Shen has reached the next level of invisible jiujitsu.  Respect.

But I know of what you are talking about.  We get a lot of military and MMA types who want to roll all the time.  I love and respect all veterans but some have a frantic energy; almost spastic, but not in an uncontrolled way.  I don't know if it's a style or cultural difference,(We're in Hawaii) but I can feel the energy.  We joke about it and talk it over with the other instructors and chalk it up as bad juju.  Some guys have a lot of combat experience in the middle east, some guys got a lot of pro fights, I don't know exactly what it is but it transfers to the mat.


with the mil they have a "I must win" focus. That mental state is exhibited in the way they train and move. I've worked with a lot of young mil and I find myself chuckling while watching or training. They also have been conditioned to move with deliberate purpose in a lot of the things they do....does that make sense LOL!?!?!?

Then theres the young or FITAH or just ego-driven fucks that just want to win or not look bad....same result.

Do you think that particular mental state is at ODDS with having "sensitivity" to your opponent?

In other words do you think that sort of "I'm gonna do this TO you / impose my will" type approach is less responsive in a way?



9/1/13 12:42 AM
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joe_mama
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shen - 
UGCTT_Fillthy - 

I think what we attribute to energy or vibe is actually our subconcious expressing the sum of millions of data points that our conscious minds are incapable of assessing cognitavely.  I think the same is true for premonitions or deja vu.  

I don't what to turn this in to a neurological thread, but the temporal lobe is responsible for assessing sensory inputs, recognizing patterns, and creating long-term memory.  Deep in the temporal lobe is a little almond-sized chunk called the amygdala, which provides input to the hypothalmus, which links our 'lizard' brain stem to our emotional 'monkey' mind (called the limbic system).  

I think that when we feel a vibe or energy from another person, we're experiencing a low-level 'amygdala hijack' (just google the phrase), where our brains have taken all sensory inputs - the sight of the facial expressions, the sound of their breathing, the smell of their sweat, the feel of their movement, etc and created an emotional fingerprint based on previous experiences.  This emtional underlayment is pushed to the conscious mind as an aggregrated 'vibe'.  As you become more experienced with BJJ, you get better at connecting to these emotions, vetting your vibes through other forms of social interaction.  Partner A generated this emotional tag, and he turned out be a giant douche.  Partner B gave me this emotional tag, and turned out to be a benevolant and charitable person.

FWIW - I still remember the people who gave me the strongest positive and negative energy.


Great post!!!

My GUESS is that's probably what's going on. But maybe it's more than that too.

I teach self-defense and we talk a lot about this type of thing (a "gut feeling", "bad vibe" or "intuition" about someone or something) as a built-in survival mechanism [ a la Gavin deBecker ("Gift of Fear")].




These were my thoughts as well. That your brain processes all of the various body languages, movements, breathing, eye-contact/darting, etc that is hard to process visually in a conscience manner.

I've noticed as well, that I can tell a lot about a person in the way they roll. What sort of person they are off the mat. I believe that your average person wears a lot of masks, but when you are down there fighting, who you really are is fully exposed.
9/1/13 3:10 AM
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Daniel/CGJJ
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shen -
Sgt. Slaphead - 
Robobear - 

Shen has reached the next level of invisible jiujitsu.  Respect.

But I know of what you are talking about.  We get a lot of military and MMA types who want to roll all the time.  I love and respect all veterans but some have a frantic energy; almost spastic, but not in an uncontrolled way.  I don't know if it's a style or cultural difference,(We're in Hawaii) but I can feel the energy.  We joke about it and talk it over with the other instructors and chalk it up as bad juju.  Some guys have a lot of combat experience in the middle east, some guys got a lot of pro fights, I don't know exactly what it is but it transfers to the mat.


with the mil they have a "I must win" focus. That mental state is exhibited in the way they train and move. I've worked with a lot of young mil and I find myself chuckling while watching or training. They also have been conditioned to move with deliberate purpose in a lot of the things they do....does that make sense LOL!?!?!?

Then theres the young or FITAH or just ego-driven fucks that just want to win or not look bad....same result.

Do you think that particular mental state is at ODDS with having "sensitivity" to your opponent?

In other words do you think that sort of "I'm gonna do this TO you / impose my will" type approach is less responsive in a way?



My guess is that mindstate is easier to learn in a short amount of time than the go-with-the-flow jiu jitsu mindset. Phone Post 3.0
9/1/13 3:27 AM
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gusto
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" But, some people you just DO NOT like the energy you get from them the second you touch them. You make a mental note, "OK, don't work with that guy again.""

some day I will be as wise as you master Shen, but for me, when I feel that type of energy, I try to kill it.
9/1/13 3:29 AM
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gusto
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joe_mama - 
shen - 
UGCTT_Fillthy - 

I think what we attribute to energy or vibe is actually our subconcious expressing the sum of millions of data points that our conscious minds are incapable of assessing cognitavely.  I think the same is true for premonitions or deja vu.  

I don't what to turn this in to a neurological thread, but the temporal lobe is responsible for assessing sensory inputs, recognizing patterns, and creating long-term memory.  Deep in the temporal lobe is a little almond-sized chunk called the amygdala, which provides input to the hypothalmus, which links our 'lizard' brain stem to our emotional 'monkey' mind (called the limbic system).  

I think that when we feel a vibe or energy from another person, we're experiencing a low-level 'amygdala hijack' (just google the phrase), where our brains have taken all sensory inputs - the sight of the facial expressions, the sound of their breathing, the smell of their sweat, the feel of their movement, etc and created an emotional fingerprint based on previous experiences.  This emtional underlayment is pushed to the conscious mind as an aggregrated 'vibe'.  As you become more experienced with BJJ, you get better at connecting to these emotions, vetting your vibes through other forms of social interaction.  Partner A generated this emotional tag, and he turned out be a giant douche.  Partner B gave me this emotional tag, and turned out to be a benevolant and charitable person.

FWIW - I still remember the people who gave me the strongest positive and negative energy.


Great post!!!

My GUESS is that's probably what's going on. But maybe it's more than that too.

I teach self-defense and we talk a lot about this type of thing (a "gut feeling", "bad vibe" or "intuition" about someone or something) as a built-in survival mechanism [ a la Gavin deBecker ("Gift of Fear")].




These were my thoughts as well. That your brain processes all of the various body languages, movements, breathing, eye-contact/darting, etc that is hard to process visually in a conscience manner.

I've noticed as well, that I can tell a lot about a person in the way they roll. What sort of person they are off the mat. I believe that your average person wears a lot of masks, but when you are down there fighting, who you really are is fully exposed.

this is a such good thread.

having rolled with various people, i would feel more comfortable leaving my kids in the care of some felons than other "respected" individuals.
9/1/13 6:18 AM
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Zero1
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One of my internal martial arts teachers always said:

Wille erzeugt Weg

In English that means: Willpower is creating distance.

I think that is very true in Jiu Jitsu. As more you want to make something happen as more you tense and loose your ability to feel.

That´s why I think it is so important to keep this clear mental state so no one can put his own feelings into your being.

I sometimes say to my students there are guys who infect others with their tensions and it is true. Some guys are so tensed up that their partners tense up too and that will mess up their performance.

Breathing is usually a very important factor too because as more you breath as more you feel. Now if you have people with repressed feelings they will have a messed up breathing and you can sense it very quickly.

I think Jiu Jitsu is very unique because in other body arts like Yoga, etc. it is just a performance of yourself but in BJJ people try to destroy your own performance so you have to deal with emotions and anger. etc.

It is an amazing way to find out more about yourself and about others.

Usually I find the charakter of someone shows into his performance on the mat.

Are you a control person in live? You do the same on the mat

Are you relaxed in live and go with the flow? You do the same on the mat.

Some people are playing it safe and never take risks in rolling and they are very passive in live too.....

Pretty interesting in my opinion.

That´s why Yoga and breathing and internal martial arts fits for me so well together with BJJ.....

Take Care
Björn
9/1/13 6:31 AM
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Robobear
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shen - 
Sgt. Slaphead - 
Robobear - 

Shen has reached the next level of invisible jiujitsu.  Respect.

But I know of what you are talking about.  We get a lot of military and MMA types who want to roll all the time.  I love and respect all veterans but some have a frantic energy; almost spastic, but not in an uncontrolled way.  I don't know if it's a style or cultural difference,(We're in Hawaii) but I can feel the energy.  We joke about it and talk it over with the other instructors and chalk it up as bad juju.  Some guys have a lot of combat experience in the middle east, some guys got a lot of pro fights, I don't know exactly what it is but it transfers to the mat.


with the mil they have a "I must win" focus. That mental state is exhibited in the way they train and move. I've worked with a lot of young mil and I find myself chuckling while watching or training. They also have been conditioned to move with deliberate purpose in a lot of the things they do....does that make sense LOL!?!?!?

Then theres the young or FITAH or just ego-driven fucks that just want to win or not look bad....same result.

Do you think that particular mental state is at ODDS with having "sensitivity" to your opponent?

In other words do you think that sort of "I'm gonna do this TO you / impose my will" type approach is less responsive in a way?




On the combat vets, I beleive they have been trained to not lose.  It is unaccceptable and not an option to lose in combat or you will die.  Some bring this to the mat but its something else.  A lot of these vets are sesoned wrestlers having years of mat experience; maybe not in BJJ but in other grapplling based arts.  They have control and a deliberate plan of attack but their energy seems a bit off the charts.

The MMA fighters have a different vibe altogether.  They have to have a win mentality but are methodical and have a particular strength they focus on whether it be takedowns, back taking ect. 

I do agree with Filthy in that there is some primortal sheet going on in our brains during combat, whether it be MMA, a street fight or a BJJ match.  The goal of any of these activities is to beat your opponent.  Hell we all know some reptillians in a gi in our dojo.

To respond to Shen, I beleive that when any of these types try to impose their will, it might seem one dimensional or feel negative like animosity but if you are intuitive, you can get past this.  I know you can feel when someone is ready to "break" mentally, pysically, and spiritually, and with the MMA guys or combat hardend guys, you gotta ride the storm out.  Honestly, I would say more than 75 percent of these guys never come back.  But the small percentage that come back, become valuable training partners and friends.

9/1/13 12:39 PM
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deepu
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Zero1 - One of my internal martial arts teachers always said:

Wille erzeugt Weg

In English that means: Willpower is creating distance.

I think that is very true in Jiu Jitsu. As more you want to make something happen as more you tense and loose your ability to feel.

That´s why I think it is so important to keep this clear mental state so no one can put his own feelings into your being.

I sometimes say to my students there are guys who infect others with their tensions and it is true. Some guys are so tensed up that their partners tense up too and that will mess up their performance.

Breathing is usually a very important factor too because as more you breath as more you feel. Now if you have people with repressed feelings they will have a messed up breathing and you can sense it very quickly.

I think Jiu Jitsu is very unique because in other body arts like Yoga, etc. it is just a performance of yourself but in BJJ people try to destroy your own performance so you have to deal with emotions and anger. etc.

It is an amazing way to find out more about yourself and about others.

Usually I find the charakter of someone shows into his performance on the mat.

Are you a control person in live? You do the same on the mat

Are you relaxed in live and go with the flow? You do the same on the mat.

Some people are playing it safe and never take risks in rolling and they are very passive in live too.....

Pretty interesting in my opinion.

That´s why Yoga and breathing and internal martial arts fits for me so well together with BJJ.....

Take Care
Björn

Great post. Rarely will you get bad energy from someone with controlled breathing while rolling.

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