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BJJGround Forum >> Question on the palm to palm RNC...


9/2/13 12:53 PM
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King Trav
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My question is how do you finish the squeeze?

With the lion killer style of RNC, I find that I finish most often and with the least amount of effort when I push my elbows together while applying the choke.

When I goto my palm to palm style of attack, I find myself driving my "non-choking" arm behind their back until my elbow is in line with their spine. Like I'm trying to force my elbows together. I have to work quite a bit harder to finish this style.

Am I applying the proper leverage in this case? I've never really looked too hard into this style of RNC, because I've always preferred the lion killer (who doesn't), but I find myself delving deeper into techniques that I don't use as often these last few months. Phone Post 3.0
9/2/13 1:11 PM
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TheBearStare
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Hmmm, maybe I'm not thinking about it enough or I'm just tired. What belt are you? I don't do the palm to palm variant(i refer to it as the ghetto choke) too much but I feel like I do the same thing for both versions. With lion killer version I get a naturally very snug grip and just constrict with my whole body. I really don't focus on my elbows as u describe.The guy should be feeling the choke and the need to tap with just one arm in place ...as long as it is in well and snug. I've choked people unconscious with one arm. The second arm or grip variation is really just for security to prevent the opponents escape and even further tightening. Its kind of irrelevant which version u do because I feel both versions are finished the same way as long as the first arm is in technically well and snug. Maybe I'm tired and not thinking straight but yeah I feel I do the same for both. Snug first arm and the grip sort of becomes "irrelevant" because you squeeze the same way Phone Post
9/2/13 1:45 PM
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Muzalini
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I just use my elbow behind their back to push forward and I usually get the tap Phone Post 3.0
9/2/13 2:02 PM
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King Trav
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TheBearStare - Hmmm, maybe I'm not thinking about it enough or I'm just tired. What belt are you? I don't do the palm to palm variant(i refer to it as the ghetto choke) too much but I feel like I do the same thing for both versions. With lion killer version I get a naturally very snug grip and just constrict with my whole body. I really don't focus on my elbows as u describe.The guy should be feeling the choke and the need to tap with just one arm in place ...as long as it is in well and snug. I've choked people unconscious with one arm. The second arm or grip variation is really just for security to prevent the opponents escape and even further tightening. Its kind of irrelevant which version u do because I feel both versions are finished the same way as long as the first arm is in technically well and snug. Maybe I'm tired and not thinking straight but yeah I feel I do the same for both. Snug first arm and the grip sort of becomes "irrelevant" because you squeeze the same way Phone Post
Blue belt.

I apply everything tightly, as you describe on the lion killer. I understand what you're saying. The elbows tend to be the very last thing I do...just to tighten up that hole I've caught their neck in a little more.

Ghetto choke is a funny name for it. I've always had crowbar choke in my head...same idea...haha. Phone Post 3.0
9/2/13 5:21 PM
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shen
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Edited: 09/02/13 7:49 PM
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Cool, I'm very interested in this topic!

FWIW, this is how I do it:

If I'm choking with my right arm, I like the choke to be a-symmetrical; I am pulling my opponent to my right side, so that my right elbow is NOT directly in front of my sternum.

I use the right side of my head to push my opponent into the "V" of my right arm.

To finish the choke, I bring my right hand and right shoulder towards each-other, while maintaining forward pressure with my head. (Sometimes I will do a little "scooping" action with my right wrist).

Very simple. It works, but I don't feel like I have deep understanding of this choke. I definitely would like to hear from forum members who are more "expert" at this particular choke. I'm curious how they do it.
9/2/13 5:39 PM
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baby-silverback
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Purple belt chiming in...the arm that isn't around the neck is my golden ticket here. I use a palm up Gable grip & my aim is to align my forearm parallel with the spine. I "suck up" the head & neck with my squeeze, with my head resting against my opponents head & my chest against their back. I hit this with the hooks in, my instep on the top of the glutes, or my shins & top of my feet against their back. It may actually be beneficial for me because of my stature.....I'm 5'5" I actually hit this version more than the standard rnc. Phone Post
9/2/13 9:27 PM
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King Trav
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Thanks everyone. I appreciate all the input. Phone Post 3.0
9/2/13 9:31 PM
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Blkbelt39
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I use what they call the serving a plate technique. My left arm comes in front of the neck while my right arm comes behind the shoulder blade and lock palm to palm. The key I use is puffing my chest when I squeeze. By doing this the choke gets tighter and u don't fatigue your arms Phone Post 3.0
9/2/13 9:32 PM
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Blkbelt39
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Always staying ear to ear Phone Post 3.0
9/2/13 9:45 PM
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Hunter V
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Muzalini - I just use my elbow behind their back to push forward and I usually get the tap Phone Post 3.0

this. You also stay ear to ear and turn your palm grip as if you were prying off a jar lid. So your top knuckles will turn to the inside. And you do a small pull w the wrists at a angle and you can get the tap. I use it as a combo with the mata leo.
9/3/13 7:17 AM
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Hunter V
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Letsgo2war - when I go palm to palm, I use the inside of the forearm to apply pressure to the front of the throat

well if you do that you are attacking the windpipe and its not a true choke per say. Mind you it works, it just isn't a full on choke vs a choke w additional pain compliance.
9/3/13 10:22 AM
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baby-silverback
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^......air choke vs blood choke


I'll take either Phone Post
9/4/13 12:37 PM
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Blkbelt39
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Ttt Phone Post 3.0
9/4/13 1:25 PM
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MTH
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Hunter V -
Letsgo2war - when I go palm to palm, I use the inside of the forearm to apply pressure to the front of the throat

well if you do that you are attacking the windpipe and its not a true choke per say. Mind you it works, it just isn't a full on choke vs a choke w additional pain compliance.
Works for me. :)

That's pretty much how I do palm-to-palm RNCs as well. I use the forearm, like some sort of reverse guillotine.

I find that if I can get my forearm all the way around so that my elbow is pointing in the same direction as his chin straight out from his sternum, then I don't have a reason to go palm-to-palm. In that scenario, I just opt for the traditional hold. Phone Post 3.0
9/4/13 2:15 PM
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Beezer
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Marcelo Garcia does a great job of explaining this choke on his site mginaction.com. I recommend taking a look at one of his videos regarding it. He refers to it as a "straight choke" Phone Post 3.0
9/4/13 4:30 PM
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gato de rua
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My good friend Daniel Sarafian showed me this choke a couple of years ago. He referred to it as "choke the goose", and used in one of his UFC Brazil wins very effectively. His advise was to always remain ear to ear, blow out the chest like "Superman", and pry the elbow into the back to reserve strength. One of my favorite when the guy fights the traditional RNC.
9/4/13 6:06 PM
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pcuzz
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Lots of good ides on this thread, I also do as Shen and drive my choking hand towards my shoulder which closes the space. One thing I also do it using my legs to push downwards on their hips, I find by pushing down on their hips I can get the choke without as much squeeze from my arms.
9/4/13 6:13 PM
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TBoy2
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shen - 
Cool, I'm very interested in this topic!

FWIW, this is how I do it:

If I'm choking with my right arm, I like the choke to be a-symmetrical; I am pulling my opponent to my right side, so that my right elbow is NOT directly in front of my sternum.

I use the right side of my head to push my opponent into the "V" of my right arm.

To finish the choke, I bring my right hand and right shoulder towards each-other, while maintaining forward pressure with my head. (Sometimes I will do a little "scooping" action with my right wrist).

Very simple. It works, but I don't feel like I have deep understanding of this choke. I definitely would like to hear from forum members who are more "expert" at this particular choke. I'm curious how they do it.

Hey Shen,

I kind of do the same thing only with 2 other things.

1) I use my rear arm to help pull my choking hand back. This helps to tighten everything. I saw this in a Stephan Kesting video.

2) I use a Small Circle wrist action. Meaning once I have my choking wrist against their neck I bend my wrist into the carotid. As I do this I pull my right arm into their neck and drive forward with my shoulder like you do.

My uncle Wally Jay was very good at this choke. I use the modern BJJ hand and arm position like you do, I just add the wrist action and forward shoulder pressure from Small Circle.
9/4/13 6:37 PM
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shen
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Edited: 09/04/13 6:57 PM
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^ Thank you!

By "scooping action" I'm actually referring to a Small Circle-type wrist action (basically, adducting the wrist).

But these BJJ guys aren't always hip to the Small Circle and I didn't want to scare any of them.

;)
9/5/13 12:57 PM
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TBoy2
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lol, sounds good shen. = )


9/10/13 1:31 AM
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pcuzz
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The non choke arm is behind their back and I bicep curl it as I squeeze the V against the neck.
9/10/13 12:40 PM
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Triple_B
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King Trav - My question is how do you finish the squeeze?

With the lion killer style of RNC, I find that I finish most often and with the least amount of effort when I push my elbows together while applying the choke.

When I goto my palm to palm style of attack, I find myself driving my "non-choking" arm behind their back until my elbow is in line with their spine. Like I'm trying to force my elbows together. I have to work quite a bit harder to finish this style.

Am I applying the proper leverage in this case? I've never really looked too hard into this style of RNC, because I've always preferred the lion killer (who doesn't), but I find myself delving deeper into techniques that I don't use as often these last few months. Phone Post 3.0

First make sure your grip is not deep. Putting the bend of your choking arm under their chin and over their chest like a traditional RNC is not the correct way to finish. Your wrist should be on their neck. The "shorter" the grip feels the better. You can always adjust it to make the grip deeper, but bringing it back past that while your opponent defends is difficult. This choke crushes their throat, it is not a blood choke.

Now think of the arm that is across the neck as a place holder. It doesn't finish the choke. All you have to do is keep it their firmly. Even if your opponent grabs with both hands on the wrist across his neck it does not matter.

Now your second arm joins the other in a palm on palm grip. Use a gable grip where all five fingers are next to each other on each hand. Taking your thumb out of the grip is a mistake and can allow your opponent to open your grip just enough to survive pulling on your arm. It also prevents you from pinching your arms to the extent required to finish the choke.

Your second arm should be placed down your opponents back. I say down because the elbow of your second arm should be pointing down. Pinching your elbows together is recommended because the distance between the elbow of the choking arm and the arm behind his back should be a little less than 90 degrees preferably. DO NOT pinch the elbow of the choking arm to the extent that it causes the wrist to bend. The wrist of your choking arm needs to be flat or arched back slightly, not curled. The majority of the pinching should be done by the arm resting on your opponent's back.

Now the finish. Imagine that both of your arms are a car jack. When you use a car jack, you push down one "arm" of the jack and as a result the other "arm" of the car jack is able to lift up the car. Your arms will do the same thing. Drive the elbow of the arm on his back down and into his back. This motion will pull back the choking arm with out you having to actually move the choking arm back yourself (remember when I said it is merely a place holder?).

You will then crush your opponent's throat and if he doesn't tap you will break/crush his larynx (ask me how I know). Overall the move should require less energy than a RNC and the tap should be quicker. It is an excellent choke to use when your arms are fatigued. If you ever get the privilege of being "lined up" by a high level black belt, who is good at taking and finishing from the back, you may see them switch to this variation once their arms tire from RNCing 10-15 guys.
9/10/13 12:58 PM
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Triple_B
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Oh yea FRAT alert
9/10/13 1:47 PM
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baby-silverback
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For those that posted, do you prefer to put the instep of the foot on the top of the hips, or use the pressure from your shins?



I also forgot to mention that pressuring them backwards to what would be a "flat back" works wonders also. I hit this more if I have also caught an "arm in" scenario too Phone Post
9/11/13 12:05 PM
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MMA_KNOWLEDGE
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2 things
1 elbow behind the back can flare out to push choking forearm into the neck
2 use the top of your head to push their head into the choke to finish more easily Phone Post

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