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BJJGround Forum >> Face choke/jaw crush during comp training?


9/3/13 1:01 AM
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Randy Marsh
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Yay or nay? This is in reference to people defending the choke with their face/jaw and getting part of their head smashed. I don't generally give or receive this tactic. Two bros at the gym were having a debate. Guy A thinks it is a jerk move. Guy B thinks it is fair game in competition training. I'm just curious about your thoughts. I have seen this thread before but can not I search for it on my phone. Phone Post
9/3/13 1:50 AM
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90lb_weakling
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Its douchey but fair game. They are not mutually exclusive.

Theres too much whine about this online lately. When I started. You learned the regular way... and the douchey way.

Bacl then, if you were friends with a guy, you were nice. And if you rolled with some spaz or some retard, you used some douchey methods to send him a message.

I really dont see the problem. Are you getting injured? No? Then calm the fuck down. Phone Post
9/3/13 2:14 AM
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checkuroil
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No problem Phone Post 3.0
9/3/13 2:45 AM
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Brian McLaughlin
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Jaw is fair game, face is not - too easy to split a lip or break a nose on the face. If you don't like the chin pressure then don't drop it into the choke, its not like I'm targeting your chin.

9/3/13 5:19 AM
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aarick161
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Fair play. If it hurts or is about to break just tap Phone Post 3.0
9/3/13 5:55 AM
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ChipW
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Fair game. If I defend with my face I expect to get it smashed. Phone Post
9/3/13 6:15 AM
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Robobear
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ChipW -  Fair game. If I defend with my face I expect to get it smashed. Phone Post

This.  Learned the hard way but valued it to this day.  Of course its a different time now and you have to make adjustments for the recreational grappler ect.  I don't do this to lower belts but let them know what could happen.  Have seen everything from minor nose bleeds to dislocated jaw, stitches ect. There should be an understanding before you roll that this could happen or there could be hard feelings.

9/3/13 8:05 AM
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elitecmbt
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Just choke the face then act like you didn't know.
"Was that RNC tight? Oh, I didn't realize I was crushing your face. Yes, we are still rolling light." Phone Post
9/3/13 9:53 AM
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SMACDADDY
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It's douchey when a lower belt does it to a higher belt.

Totally legit when a high belt does it to a lower belt.

Am I right guys, or am I right! You could of course, exchange big guy/little guy with low belt/high belt, and the same would apply. Glad to help. Phone Post
9/3/13 10:13 AM
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MTH
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I'm confused . . .

If something hurts too bad for any reason, the option to tap is always available. Why would just let your nose or jaw break or your lips be split open on your teeth in training simply because the "choke" isn't being applied perfectly?

If you're stuck in training and about to suffer injury, then tap. You hold the keys to your own jail cell--so let yourself out if you need to.

If my face/jaw gets in the way of a choke in training--for any reason--I'll seek to escape until I either get out or I become concerned I may be injured, in which case I tap. I always let the guy know that I tapped due to face/jaw pressure rather than a choke just so he's aware that, technically, he may still have some angles to work on in terms of really sinking the submission as a choke. This is often followed by a brief discussion of where exactly we think it went "wrong"--ie, he grabbed it from this angle, or I dropped my chin in at that point, or he didn't have whatever grip, etc.

I expect the same approach in return, and so far have always gotten it. It improves us both and keeps everybody's face/jaw intact.

I'm not sure what's wrong with that approach or why you'd do it any other way. Phone Post 3.0
9/3/13 10:25 AM
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judoinmotion
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I personally like to use more finesse while training with my everyday partners but it does not apply the other way around. I used to get upset long time ago, but not anymore.
I would move on to something else since tapping my partner is not my ultimate goal. Last time, a world champion did it to me and I tap quickly before any damage to my face. Well, let's put this way, it is your choice to put you chin down, if you don't want to get it crushed put it up and get choked! Either way you lose, so be a good sport and tap.
9/3/13 10:41 AM
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Magic Mago
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There's too many people on the mats thinking they're playing chess or ping pong or some shit.
Its bjj, you get roughed up at times, its a combat sport.
Don't defend the choke with your face, I'll squeeze it.
Don't want to get wrist or leg locked? Don't dangle your hand or feet in front of me. Phone Post
9/3/13 10:46 AM
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Magic Mago
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Imo the real douche move is to let your partner do stupid shit in training and thus letting them build bad habits. Phone Post
9/3/13 10:57 AM
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Missing Glove Tape
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Fair game if partners are gonna be stupid, they gotta be tough.
9/3/13 1:13 PM
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Judo Scott
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For me it depends on if my partner is ok with it. I don't mind people roughing me up in training provided its not reckless attempts to hurt me. Also don't like it if people choke my face or put a knee on my head for a a whole roll and not do anything else if after a minute I don't tap to it then its not going its happen. Some people are ok with it some aren't.
9/3/13 3:06 PM
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UGCTT_Fillthy
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I had a high level brown put the squeeze on my jaw.  He secured it, then told me what he was going to do.  ("The jaw is a movable joint, I can dislocate it") As soon as it started to hurt I tapped, and he used it as a teaching moment.  Now I know that if I want to stop the choke with my face, I better get my hands to the party.

I think it's important to recognize when your partner is defending 'wrong' and let them know what can happen.  If you think grabbing it and cranking it is the way to teach, you're a douche.

9/3/13 6:00 PM
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ChokeTheFace
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With great face comes great choke-ability. Phone Post 3.0
9/3/13 6:17 PM
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biggator
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we have all heard the old chestnut...

"if he didn't want you to choke his face he wouldn't put it in your choke".

...it is still true today. I don't do it and my most of my training partners do not but it happens. just tap. i like what you guys are suggesting of discussing the angle after and it is useful.

The best answer i have found from the point of view of the choker is that you don't have to choke the face to finish. finding the right angle is not so hard and makes for better choking.

for cross chokes i was shown a great tech this year of shaking their head like you are not supposed to do with a baby haha it works surprisingly well from guard or mount.

So you have your grips and opponent tucks his chin. Just shake them and as their head bobbles sink the blades of your wrists under. simple solution helps you save face literally.
9/3/13 9:30 PM
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truehonor
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Smashing the face, jaw and twisting the hell out if their neck in the process to say you tapped the opponent is on par with biting hand and twisting the fingers of said perpetrator and saying you defended the choke successfully.
9/3/13 9:42 PM
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truehonor
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truehonor - Smashing the face, jaw and twisting the hell out if their neck in the process to say you tapped the opponent is on par with biting hand and twisting the fingers of said perpetrator and saying you defended the choke successfully.

On the hand, I think the more honorable thing to do is clasp the forehead with your free hand and lift the chin up a bit to feed the choke. I don't mind getting roughed up, but certain moves simply piss me off if someone is being a desperate ass in their approach. That's when it's time to send them their bar tab.
9/3/13 9:43 PM
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truehonor
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truehonor - Smashing the face, jaw and twisting the hell out if their neck in the process to say you tapped the opponent is on par with biting hand and twisting the fingers of said perpetrator and saying you defended the choke successfully.

On the other hand, I think the more honorable thing to do is clasp the forehead with your free hand and lift the chin up a bit to feed the choke. I don't mind getting roughed up, but certain moves simply piss me off if someone is being a desperate ass in their approach. That's when it's time to send them their bar tab.
9/3/13 10:53 PM
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Shotta
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Regular rolling is a toss up. But for comp training, tap or wake up with a broken jaw. Phone Post 3.0
9/3/13 11:32 PM
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McLeod
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If the guy is BRAND new (like within a month or two) then no, don't do it until you are absolutely sure he knows to tap and what can happen, etc. I know a lot of new guys who fight a defense with their jaw or face because they don't know the correct defense.

Competition training is obviously different (unless it is REAL close to a competition, then you'd be lowering the likelihood that a teammate can compete at 100%)
If you are "flowing", then obviously no. But in any other roll, I consider it the same as going for a achilles lock. If they don't defend correctly, and it isn't cranking the neck *risk of serious injury*, then pressure is fine ramped up at a consistent level so they have TIME to tap.
9/4/13 2:06 AM
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BJJBuster
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Randy Marsh - Yay or nay? This is in reference to people defending the choke with their face/jaw and getting part of their head smashed. I don't generally give or receive this tactic. Two bros at the gym were having a debate. Guy A thinks it is a jerk move. Guy B thinks it is fair game in competition training. I'm just curious about your thoughts. I have seen this thread before but can not I search for it on my phone. Phone Post
Is guy A the choker or chokee?

Assuming hes the "chokee" If he's getting his face choked and thinks its a jerk move he could just tap. Ain't no sense in blocking something with your face and then complaining Phone Post 3.0
9/4/13 2:07 AM
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BJJBuster
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I mean, do people block punches with their face and then complain? Phone Post 3.0

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