UnderGround Forums
 

BJJGround Forum >> the problem with penalizing the guard pull


10/22/13 12:20 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
AokiPants
14 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 10/5/11
Posts: 775
 
adcc turns into high school wrestling matches with brief flashes of world class jiu jitsu

its like being blue balled the whole time
10/22/13 12:45 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
liquidrob
115 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 9/9/02
Posts: 11610
It really ruined the final matches at ADCC for me

The other matches were much better throughout just with the ability to pull guard in the beginning
10/22/13 9:21 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
shermbe
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 8/13/10
Posts: 1001
lets get the best guard players in the world, have them compete in trials with regular BJJ rules, and then take the cream of the crop and have them wrestle each other.
10/22/13 9:33 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Kneeblock
151 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 36945
Aren't you able to pull during the first ten minutes but not thereafter or was there a rule change. Phone Post
10/22/13 9:37 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
liquidrob
115 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 9/9/02
Posts: 11612
Kneeblock -  Aren't you able to pull during the first ten minutes but not thereafter or was there a rule change. Phone Post

I'm the finals the negative points start right away
10/22/13 10:42 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
vegard
17 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 4/24/07
Posts: 8765
Almost every match, after the fact, you can just fast forward to the 10 minute mark.

Otavio and Kron was terrible.

Cobrinha and Mendes was pretty bad.

The idea of no points sounds great but it just leads to no real attempt to compete until points start.
10/22/13 11:04 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
UNIFIEDTEAM1
24 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 3/26/03
Posts: 1672
It's submission WRESTLING. How about focusing on that a bit more?

Jiu jitsu seems so paradoxical now. Ground fighting fought by guys that lack the ability to get it there w/ skill.
10/22/13 11:27 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Shemhazai
14 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 8/27/08
Posts: 868
Do away with points for sweeps and takedowns, give points only for side control, mount and back. It will lead to the least amount of stalling and passivity, IMO.
10/22/13 11:39 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
MickColins
152 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/14/08
Posts: 12806
Maybe, just maybe, guys should work on their takedowns. Phone Post 3.0
10/22/13 12:46 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
biggator
41 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 4/22/09
Posts: 2868
if they want takedowns at adcc why not invite judoka and wrestlers?

whatever they are trying to do with the split rules of points after a set amount of time is bs.

point fighters gonna point fight

kron otavio was a schuabb fest till the last min where otavio shot a double trying to win with a td and was tapping before krons back hit the mat.


you either have points in a match or you don't. that half stepping bullshit was dumb
10/22/13 12:52 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
liquidrob
115 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 9/9/02
Posts: 11618
The no points for the first 10 or whatever worked fine for the majority of the matches

The probably was the finals were the negatives (guard pulling) started immediately, so know one wanted to risk pulling and that's why we got wrestling matches

Plus there are stalling calls in the rules but the refs never enforced it
10/22/13 2:55 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
misterw
6 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 2/1/08
Posts: 743
I understand the complaint with the result....but shouldn't the best grapplers in the world be able to muster up some decent takedowns?
10/22/13 5:44 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
The Handsome One
3 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/14/13
Posts: 26
You can't have your cake and eat it too. People will/do complain either way. Just take it for what it is and if you really enjoy the double guard pull you can watch that take place at all of the other tournaments throughout the year. I Phone Post 3.0
10/22/13 6:53 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Akston
32 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 6/29/12
Posts: 3737
I say don't penalize guard pulls, learn to pass Phone Post
10/22/13 7:57 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
AokiPants
14 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 10/5/11
Posts: 776
While taking away penalties for guard pulls creates double guard pulls in some cases, it at least leaves opportunities for one competitor to pass and one competitor to play guard.

Penalizing guard pulls results almost exclusively in terrible wrestling matches. You would be hard pressed to find a competitor willing to sacrifice an advantage during a high level match.

And while I agree that all competitors should be proficient in takedowns, you're nuts if you think these guys aren't training their wrestling everyday. It takes a long time to get good at something like wrestling, you can't expect these guys to have Olympic level skill. That's like complaining that MMA fighters don't have the same stand up ability as pro boxers.

Furthermore, even if these guys trained both BJJ and wrestling since day 1, penalizing the guard pull would still result in wrestling matches. They would look a lot more technical, but they would still be wrestling matches.

Personally, if I want to watch wrestling I will watch wrestling. Ultimately, submission grappling fans want to see submissions, not takedowns. Even if both guys are scissoring banging at least one of them can heel hook the other. Phone Post 3.0
10/22/13 8:12 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
joshjitsu
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/6/08
Posts: 5554
Hmmmmmm I think the idea of taking away takedown and sweep points sounds kind of interesting. Phone Post 3.0
10/22/13 8:29 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
FaceToFace
79 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/1/09
Posts: 2859
joshjitsu - Hmmmmmm I think the idea of taking away takedown and sweep points sounds kind of interesting. Phone Post 3.0

I like the idea as well. It would makes things really interesting.

10/22/13 8:34 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Poet of Gore
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 9/27/13
Posts: 379
UNIFIEDTEAM1 - It's submission WRESTLING. How about focusing on that a bit more?

Jiu jitsu seems so paradoxical now. Ground fighting fought by guys that lack the ability to get it there w/ skill.

yeah, lets put more wrestling in there...oh wait, you mean there are rules in wrestling to make it more exciting? rules that ADCC/BJJ/SW does not have????

 

wait, you mean there are wrestling tournaments where you can just fucking watch wrestling if that is what you want to see? wuuuuuuuut?

10/23/13 9:59 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Kneeblock
151 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 36955
From a spectator perspective, I hate watching BJJers jockey for takedowns, but from a martial arts perspective, if BJJers are sucking at the stand up, there's a fatal flaw in our art. The last generation that included Roger, Jacare, Xande and Marcelo made judo and wrestling a major part of their game and they managed to have exciting matches.
I think rather than penalizing the pull, the solution is to make takedowns count for more points. If there's such a high degree of difficulty in hitting them, they should give you as many points as getting the mount. Allow pulling, but know one TD could completely change the outcome of the match. That rule change would attract more wrestlers and judoka. Phone Post
10/23/13 10:07 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
BALEIA
44 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 7981
what if the negative point was for guard passing but than it was 3 points for a sweep?
10/23/13 11:29 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
mrgoodarmbar
108 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 11/10/05
Posts: 3590
joshjitsu - Hmmmmmm I think the idea of taking away takedown and sweep points sounds kind of interesting. Phone Post 3.0

yes..No advantages or ref's decistions either. I've been arguing for this in all of the previous pts vs. sub only threads...
Then sudden death/victory ot....1st pts or sub wins.



10/26/13 9:19 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Ray Cappa
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 2/18/11
Posts: 689
UNIFIEDTEAM1 - It's submission WRESTLING. How about focusing on that a bit more?

Jiu jitsu seems so paradoxical now. Ground fighting fought by guys that lack the ability to get it there w/ skill.
Good point. Phone Post 3.0
10/26/13 9:22 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Ray Cappa
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 2/18/11
Posts: 690
Kneeblock - From a spectator perspective, I hate watching BJJers jockey for takedowns, but from a martial arts perspective, if BJJers are sucking at the stand up, there's a fatal flaw in our art. The last generation that included Roger, Jacare, Xande and Marcelo made judo and wrestling a major part of their game and they managed to have exciting matches.
I think rather than penalizing the pull, the solution is to make takedowns count for more points. If there's such a high degree of difficulty in hitting them, they should give you as many points as getting the mount. Allow pulling, but know one TD could completely change the outcome of the match. That rule change would attract more wrestlers and judoka. Phone Post
I like this idea. Phone Post 3.0
10/26/13 9:40 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Rival School
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/11/11
Posts: 4365
Ray Cappa -
Kneeblock - From a spectator perspective, I hate watching BJJers jockey for takedowns, but from a martial arts perspective, if BJJers are sucking at the stand up, there's a fatal flaw in our art. The last generation that included Roger, Jacare, Xande and Marcelo made judo and wrestling a major part of their game and they managed to have exciting matches.
I think rather than penalizing the pull, the solution is to make takedowns count for more points. If there's such a high degree of difficulty in hitting them, they should give you as many points as getting the mount. Allow pulling, but know one TD could completely change the outcome of the match. That rule change would attract more wrestlers and judoka. Phone Post
I like this idea. Phone Post 3.0
At some point some guys wrestling may just cancel each other out. People act like these guy neglect takedowns. That's ridiculous. Phone Post 3.0
10/26/13 10:05 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Muffinho
16 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 10/23/09
Posts: 1839
The problem most people have with guard pulling is (or at least should be): Double Guard Pull.

If you think that just because BJJ Black Belt X pulls guard that the martial art is no longer legitimate as a means to self defense, you're a clown. Any decent blue or purple belt can takedown the average person on the street. You're not getting into a street fight with an MMA fighter. 99% of the population is completely untrained. If you still hold onto the notion that a BJJer should be able to takedown wrestlers in MMA just based on BJJ training, you're a silly.

Eliminating the double guard pull is easy. Instead of making it 1 advantage for taking top position from double guard, make it 2 points. That is sufficient incentive as you know that even if you are swept back, you are not losing.

This also gives incentive to do takedowns (in an indirect manner). If one knows that everytime they pull guard, they are risking 2 points from an easy double guard-> stand up, they will be more tempted to attack takedowns, or at least not pull guard right away.

5 grappling does this in their tournaments and it's a great way to make matches more exciting.

Reply Post

You must log in to post a reply. Click here to login.