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BJJGround Forum >> White knighting on the atama forum


8/7/14 5:22 PM
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UGCTT_Fillthy
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Jordan Tabor - Did they offer it to you?

Yes, but they're a dirty liar scumbag with no skills, and they lack the authority to promote anyone to black belt. Please advise.
8/7/14 5:49 PM
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Jordan Tabor - What are you talking about? I pulled, he passed, I countered, he tapped. Sounds about right. I made a mistake, he made a mistake, his was fatal, mine was not.
You pulled worse then a white belt, you defended like a white belt, got mounted like a white belt. Then pulled off the one technique you are good at.... yep your are a BB... in your own mind. Phone Post 3.0

This is kind of silly, Jordan's done enough dumb shit that you don't need to criticize him for the stuff he hasn't done.

It was a garbage guard pull, but I don't think the way he tried to recover is that bad(trying to come up on a single is totally legit and the way his opponent countered it was pretty nice) and he never got mounted.

100%. When I hear people talk this way about someone's bad move in a match it's very likely coming form a source with limited experience in competition. Everything doesn't turn out the way you plan in a competition, much less so than in sparring with your teammates.

And the guy he beat looked solid enough. And complain about him using an allowed submission!? Please... if you had it, would you have let it go? If you would then competing is not for you.
8/7/14 8:45 PM
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onyx2002
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Jordan Tabor - What are you talking about? I pulled, he passed, I countered, he tapped. Sounds about right. I made a mistake, he made a mistake, his was fatal, mine was not.
You pulled worse then a white belt, you defended like a white belt, got mounted like a white belt. Then pulled off the one technique you are good at.... yep your are a BB... in your own mind. Phone Post 3.0

This is kind of silly, Jordan's done enough dumb shit that you don't need to criticize him for the stuff he hasn't done.

It was a garbage guard pull, but I don't think the way he tried to recover is that bad(trying to come up on a single is totally legit and the way his opponent countered it was pretty nice) and he never got mounted.

100%. When I hear people talk this way about someone's bad move in a match it's very likely coming form a source with limited experience in competition. Everything doesn't turn out the way you plan in a competition, much less so than in sparring with your teammates.

And the guy he beat looked solid enough. And complain about him using an allowed submission!? Please... if you had it, would you have let it go? If you would then competing is not for you.

This is really neither here nor there in relation to the self promotion but since I love heelhooks I'll try to explain the issue. Many many many gi practioners have spent a bjj lifetime avoiding twisting and reaping leglocks. To the point that it is almost embarrassing. They don't recognize the setups they don't know a quality defense and they are overly paranoid that as soon as it it locked up their leg will instantly explode. Of course to me this is stupid and ridiculous. I have leglocked many people that are much better at bjj overall simply due to ignorance. Just because I heelhook a black belt doesn't mean I am at a black belt level. This is the issue people are having with the video. Of course Jordan won and I think it is great. I think heelhooks should be allowed in gi and nogi. But just because you win using a move your opponent is unfamiliar with doesn't negate poor technique in other areas. If you look up scott yokel from 10th planet a couple years ago he heelhooked a black belt when he was a blue belt. He has gone on to beat others and generally be all around good. I think he is still a purple belt. Heel hooks are wonderful and my highest percentage sub but using one to win doesn't mean all your other skills are necessarily on point.
8/8/14 12:31 AM
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The Apostle
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Jordan Tabor - Ask him EXACTLY what happened. Not that nonsense where I just showed up in a black belt. Ask him what the messages sent were about. Ask him how Carlos was involved.

If you notice, he responded with lies. He called Keenan and found out I was never on TLI?

http://juliuspark.wordpress.com/2009/05/14/2009-team-lloyd-irvin-world-championships-roster/

I contacted Keenan. Keenan doesn't know a Vinny Souza. Contact him again and ask for the truth.

So the link you provided shows us that you were in fact on TLI back then?

And you were listed as a blue, in May 2009. When did this black belt fiasco start? Within the last few months?

From blue to black in just under 5 years? Is that what you're saying? And the competition footage in your opinion confirms 1) a black belt skill level and 2) the rapid promotion from blue to black?

Thanks in advance.
8/8/14 2:03 AM
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Jordan Tabor
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So the link you provided shows us that you were in fact on TLI back then?


Yep.

When did this black belt fiasco start?


January 2013.

From blue to black in just under 5 years?


It's actually an interesting story. I started with wrestling. First, I had to know if the jiujitsu worked. So I fought Alliance and got my ass kicked. Then I trained with Alliance, and eventually working as an apprentice instructor. This was between 2002 and 2006. During that time period I fought under their banner, grappled under their banner and helped them with their cross training, as I was studying muay thai at the time as well.

We also operated a fight club/investigations agency out of alliance head quarters, eventually defeating an alliance of Chinese society members. Guy from the Masons, guy from Temple, those guys. It was kinda cool. That was in 07. I moved into the academy in 2008. Took a room in the back and lived on the mats. I woke up in the morning, taught morning class, cleaned the mats for three hours a day, taught the kids classes, taught some adult classes, trained, etc.

After a few years, the training took it's toll and I went down from exhaustion. A team mate saved my life. When I recovered, I got back to it, earning my purple in 09 after mundials. 2010 the recession hit. I left the academy, as funding had run out, and went to strike out on my own. I receive my brown belt as a parting gift.

I'm seeing weird stuff from the federation, people losing their belts, people buying rank, lineage wars, all that nonsense. Figured I would stay at brown, avoid that scene. So I head to Boston, get a job teaching, and mind my business. First instructor was cool. I rarely worked with him. Kicked my ass pretty good though. He left.

We hire two new guys. One is Vinny. I'd started brown belt off getting choked unconscious. I kept training. Three years later, I encounter Vinny's team. They ask me to step aside on account of our being on the same team. I decline, they insist, they talk to the ref, I'm out, they're in. I hit the brown belt division and they go over, fix the brackets and remove me again, this time placing me in the black belt division so they could win the brown. I win the black belt division against a second degree. The guy from BTT suggests I ask for my belt. I didn't want to do that, so I didn't. Vinny walks up and tells me he can't promote me. I said fine. Now he's telling my manager its time for me to advance. Only thing I would need to do is teach for him. They would "own a piece of me". I decline, management insisted, giving me a week to accept the promotion. I accept it.

Now there's the matter of paperwork. Vinny goes to talk to Carlos because the forms are circular. IE you need form a to fill out form b and form b to fill out form a. It doesn't work UNLESS you sign the academy over. Affiliation is a serious business deal, not a requirement to hold rank in a martial art. Carlos Gracie Jr demands 2k to approve the promotion, or else I can reset the time on my brown belt. Also, separate your gi from your no gi, teach "full time" and one other vague statement of advice. I wait a few months to see if they were seriously gonna go with extortion, then watched them rip off Osman and Schilling, along with a whole bunch of others. I put my belt on and walk from the deal. No beef. No threatening behavior, we just went back about our business.

Vinny is cool. I'm cool. The matter is done. Then the IBJJF held a meeting in new york. The new rules are this.

1. The affiliations are actually franchises, not teams.

2.Everyone above brown and black must invest in an approved franchise. You know, instead of maybe paying... THE GYM OWNER? You know, the guy that does the work.

In other words, they wanted 2k and a bad investment to not lose my rank. Of course I kept it. If someone threatens me, I do the opposite of their demands. Their primary threat was you guys. You'd catch me for sure. CUO just isn't scary enough. Sorry.

Now, next, I reactivated "Investigations" and started looking at the structure of this company. You know, to track that $2,000 that they REALLY seemed to want. That's when we're contacted by both the muscle and the victim. So we contacted both the Gracie and Machado families. Everyone we talked to had one thing to say, the dude's a goon, going so far as to victimize his own family members for a quick buck. The prior owners were no better, shut down for drug trafficking.

At this point, I realized I was dealing with the fucking mob. So yeah, no sir, you're not getting me to sign with them, make things right with them, train with them or otherwise support, endorse or being anywhere near that shit. Some of you reading this, including those about to make negative comments, know full damn well that you're sitting there paying about $200 a month to NOT train with a dude. You just won't lose your rank is all. Won't be banned from tournaments. Are we renting black belts now? These dudes are under the impression that this thing entitles them to monthly payments, down payments, franchise fees, etc.

So that's each belt level and what I did there. Now I just posted that under my real name, so if I'm a liar, you know who to sue. Pretty sure they have the cash and the lawyers to do so. I just feel it should be known, this guy's a shot caller, a criminal. Heed my warning. Things were smooth, Carlos shows up, shit got crazy.
8/8/14 2:24 AM
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checkuroil
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"We also operated a fight club/investigations agency out of alliance head quarters, eventually defeating an alliance of Chinese society members. Guy from the Masons, guy from Temple, those guys. "

Phone Post 3.0
8/8/14 6:30 AM
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Must
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Jordan Tabor - What are you talking about? I pulled, he passed, I countered, he tapped. Sounds about right. I made a mistake, he made a mistake, his was fatal, mine was not.
You pulled worse then a white belt, you defended like a white belt, got mounted like a white belt. Then pulled off the one technique you are good at.... yep your are a BB... in your own mind. Phone Post 3.0

This is kind of silly, Jordan's done enough dumb shit that you don't need to criticize him for the stuff he hasn't done.

It was a garbage guard pull, but I don't think the way he tried to recover is that bad(trying to come up on a single is totally legit and the way his opponent countered it was pretty nice) and he never got mounted.

100%. When I hear people talk this way about someone's bad move in a match it's very likely coming form a source with limited experience in competition. Everything doesn't turn out the way you plan in a competition, much less so than in sparring with your teammates.

And the guy he beat looked solid enough. And complain about him using an allowed submission!? Please... if you had it, would you have let it go? If you would then competing is not for you.

This is really neither here nor there in relation to the self promotion but since I love heelhooks I'll try to explain the issue. Many many many gi practioners have spent a bjj lifetime avoiding twisting and reaping leglocks. To the point that it is almost embarrassing. They don't recognize the setups they don't know a quality defense and they are overly paranoid that as soon as it it locked up their leg will instantly explode. Of course to me this is stupid and ridiculous. I have leglocked many people that are much better at bjj overall simply due to ignorance. Just because I heelhook a black belt doesn't mean I am at a black belt level. This is the issue people are having with the video. Of course Jordan won and I think it is great. I think heelhooks should be allowed in gi and nogi. But just because you win using a move your opponent is unfamiliar with doesn't negate poor technique in other areas. If you look up scott yokel from 10th planet a couple years ago he heelhooked a black belt when he was a blue belt. He has gone on to beat others and generally be all around good. I think he is still a purple belt. Heel hooks are wonderful and my highest percentage sub but using one to win doesn't mean all your other skills are necessarily on point.

I absolutely disagree. Your whole argument is completely based on your assumptions. You don't know how much he knows about the set ups of heel hooks, if he uses them a lot himself or if it's his favorite technique. People miss set ups all the time in competitions.

And someone attributed the win to an early tap. But the fact of the matter is that only his opponent knows what it felt like. Unless you know the guy it's impossible to know the limitations of his acl, meniscus and so forth.

But I do agree with this being neither here nor there to Jordan's self promotion. There have been so many twists and turns in that guy's story that it all feels like bs at this point.
8/8/14 7:53 AM
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RobertKipness
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"It's actually an interesting story. I started with wrestling. First, I had to know if the jiujitsu worked. So I fought Alliance and got my ass kicked. Then I trained with Alliance, and eventually working as an apprentice instructor. This was between 2002 and 2006. During that time period I fought under their banner, grappled under their banner and helped them with their cross training, as I was studying muay thai at the time as well.

We also operated a fight club/investigations agency out of alliance head quarters, eventually defeating an alliance of Chinese society members. Guy from the Masons, guy from Temple, those guys. It was kinda cool. That was in 07. I moved into the academy in 2008. Took a room in the back and lived on the mats. I woke up in the morning, taught morning class, cleaned the mats for three hours a day, taught the kids classes, taught some adult classes, trained, etc."

Correct me if I'm wrong, but previously you said you moved into and lived at Moses' academy, not alliance headquarters.
8/8/14 8:35 AM
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Jordan Tabor
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but previously you said you moved into and lived at Moses' academy, not alliance headquarters.


Alliance is not known as "the academy". I trained in both Atlanta and MD, settling in MD, before moving to Boston. Atlanta is where I picked up my leg locks.

There have been so many twists and turns in that guy's story that it all feels like bs at this point.


That's because it's actually real. You can attend class a couple of days a week, pal up with the instructor, do a couple of sport matches, pay your money, not ask any questions and get the dull, neutered martial arts experience that most of the posters are describing. If you open your eyes, start asking questions, take an active role in your environment, then you'll see an entirely new world. You've literally got guys on board talking about how much realer their arts is because they never pissed anyone off and stood next to people that did stuff. What?
8/8/14 9:38 AM
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tjmitch
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OK, with this 'fighting the triads' stuff, I now believe we have all taken the bait.

Congrats sir, you have broke my 15 year streak of never getting trolled on the internet.
8/8/14 10:02 AM
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Furacao
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"We also operated a fight club/investigations agency out of alliance head quarters, eventually defeating an alliance of Chinese society members. Guy from the Masons, guy from Temple, those guys. It was kinda cool."

What year was it that you participated in the Kumite and beat Chong Li???

8/8/14 10:48 AM
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LinkBJJ603
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Edited: 08/08/14 1:40 PM
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man i cant believe i read through all this haha but i just watched the video. the black belt Jordan faced is legit i know him he is a great guy and is very knowledgeable and a good competitor both in bjj and mma. if that counts for anything which im sure it doesnt in this case haha. i have seen Jordan at a few events and he seems to tare through divisons pretty steadily knows his game and what he needs to do i actually enjoyed watching him compete. just an observation take it for what its worth i suppose.
8/8/14 12:05 PM
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The Popeye
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Fuck here is my Opinion on the subject.

Dont say anything here that you would not be comfortable saying in front of or to the person in question.
8/8/14 12:42 PM
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checkuroil
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Heres my opinion:

I want to hear stories of fighting masons and triads Phone Post 3.0
8/8/14 1:29 PM
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justsomeguy2
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I take back everything I've said about Osyris/Jordan. It's clear at this point he has some issues and all of this is just feeding it. I hope he can get some help and put this stuff behind him at some point.
8/8/14 1:47 PM
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slideyfoot
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checkuroil - Heres my opinion:

I want to hear stories of fighting masons and triads Phone Post 3.0

I'm guessing that's in reference to the whole JFS USA thing on Bullshido about seven years ago. E.g.:

https://www.google.co.uk/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&es_th=1&ie=UTF-8#q=site%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.bullshido.net%2F%20jfs%20osiris
8/8/14 1:58 PM
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Jessy Ringquist
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Jessy Ringquist -
Jordan Tabor -
I would like to see this addressed as well


BTT signed off.

You pulled worse then a white belt, you defended like a white belt, got mounted like a white belt.


If you can show me a single frame from that video where I'm in mount, I'll take off my black belt and wear that white belt.
BTT is a blackbelt? Phone Post 3.0
BTT is a Blackbelt?

My man, you say btt signed off on your promotion guaranteed by a new(er) black belt who is not able to promote to black belt.

This begs the question... who is BTT to sign off on this? An organization is not a black belt. Phone Post 3.0
8/8/14 2:44 PM
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creekwarrior2
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Furacao -

Agreed Shen - on that note...

I am with you on this. Done feeding the troll. Phone Post 3.0
8/8/14 4:13 PM
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Synado
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shen - 

 

My question...

Is EVERYONE ever affiliated with lloyd Irvin completely out of their mind --or is it only like 50% of them who are nuts, but it just seems much higher?

Someone explain this to me; how are there SO many crazy people from one school? It's one after another after another.

 

 

 

 


Lloyd has filled the father figure role for a lot of his students. Its hard for people to break free of that. But he has a lot of good guys who train there who are focused in on training and becoming the best. I'd say all those wrestlers training at Duponts place were essentially in the same situation. Free training, free lodging, free good, free travel, and free entry fees to tournaments in a sport where there is no money. Seems like a fairly rational sacrifice for some. They keep their head down, stay out of the drama, and just focus on being the best.
8/8/14 4:47 PM
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shen
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Synado - 
shen - 

 

My question...

Is EVERYONE ever affiliated with lloyd Irvin completely out of their mind --or is it only like 50% of them who are nuts, but it just seems much higher?

Someone explain this to me; how are there SO many crazy people from one school? It's one after another after another.

 

 

 

 


Lloyd has filled the father figure role for a lot of his students. Its hard for people to break free of that. But he has a lot of good guys who train there who are focused in on training and becoming the best. I'd say all those wrestlers training at Duponts place were essentially in the same situation. Free training, free lodging, free good, free travel, and free entry fees to tournaments in a sport where there is no money. Seems like a fairly rational sacrifice for some. They keep their head down, stay out of the drama, and just focus on being the best.

Yes, but I don't recall a seemingly never ending string of ex-Dupont Wrestlers being involved in or publicly saying really crazy sh!it.

8/8/14 6:10 PM
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ozjiujitsu
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This has descended into anarchy!!! And there are more than a few suspect accounts posting on here Phone Post 3.0
8/8/14 6:52 PM
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dojo stormer
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Is Dupont that guy rogan was mentioning that had a movie made about him. Some gay dude who got wrestlers to train at his home gym
8/8/14 8:10 PM
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Synado
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Synado - 
shen - 

 

My question...

Is EVERYONE ever affiliated with lloyd Irvin completely out of their mind --or is it only like 50% of them who are nuts, but it just seems much higher?

Someone explain this to me; how are there SO many crazy people from one school? It's one after another after another.

 

 

 

 


Lloyd has filled the father figure role for a lot of his students. Its hard for people to break free of that. But he has a lot of good guys who train there who are focused in on training and becoming the best. I'd say all those wrestlers training at Duponts place were essentially in the same situation. Free training, free lodging, free good, free travel, and free entry fees to tournaments in a sport where there is no money. Seems like a fairly rational sacrifice for some. They keep their head down, stay out of the drama, and just focus on being the best.

Yes, but I don't recall a seemingly never ending string of ex-Dupont Wrestlers being involved in or publicly saying really crazy sh!it.


I was just trying to give you some reasons. Not justify what has been said or done. I personally dislike Lloyd because he treated the people paying the bills like second class citizens in my opinion and then elevated his guys who were paying nothing. I did know a couple of Lloyds guys; Mike Fowler, JT Torres, and even Mike Easton (I know, I know), and Danny all came of as cool people. Lloyd personally never did anything terrible to me, I just didn't care for his lower belt classes and customer service.
8/8/14 8:13 PM
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Synado
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shen - 
Synado - 
shen - 

 

My question...

Is EVERYONE ever affiliated with lloyd Irvin completely out of their mind --or is it only like 50% of them who are nuts, but it just seems much higher?

Someone explain this to me; how are there SO many crazy people from one school? It's one after another after another.

 

 

 

 


Lloyd has filled the father figure role for a lot of his students. Its hard for people to break free of that. But he has a lot of good guys who train there who are focused in on training and becoming the best. I'd say all those wrestlers training at Duponts place were essentially in the same situation. Free training, free lodging, free good, free travel, and free entry fees to tournaments in a sport where there is no money. Seems like a fairly rational sacrifice for some. They keep their head down, stay out of the drama, and just focus on being the best.

Yes, but I don't recall a seemingly never ending string of ex-Dupont Wrestlers being involved in or publicly saying really crazy sh!it.


I think this is a poor analogy. DuPont was nothing but a bankroll who funded olympic wrestlers so he could hang out with olympic wresters, he himself was physically sad and couldn't out-wrestle a puppy. "His wrestlers" entertained him for the financial support, but he had nothing to do with their skill level or the aquisition of it.

LI, no matter how much it upsets people, is a very high level bjj artist and instructor and he made that team what it was.

Also, no matter how much hate you have for the guy, who most if not all of us have never even met, comparing him to a man who has an actual mental illness and murdered Dave Schultz because he was going to leave the estate and go coach at Stanford is so stupid it's offensive.


My point is you all believe people who trained with Lloyd knew what was going on. Like the wrestlers with Dupont, they chose to ignore it or were oblivious because they were too focused on getting better at their martial art. Its not a poor metaphor, you just choose to not want an explanation.
8/8/14 8:18 PM
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Synado
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rydney - 
shen - 
Synado - 
shen - 

 

My question...

Is EVERYONE ever affiliated with lloyd Irvin completely out of their mind --or is it only like 50% of them who are nuts, but it just seems much higher?

Someone explain this to me; how are there SO many crazy people from one school? It's one after another after another.

 

 

 

 


Lloyd has filled the father figure role for a lot of his students. Its hard for people to break free of that. But he has a lot of good guys who train there who are focused in on training and becoming the best. I'd say all those wrestlers training at Duponts place were essentially in the same situation. Free training, free lodging, free good, free travel, and free entry fees to tournaments in a sport where there is no money. Seems like a fairly rational sacrifice for some. They keep their head down, stay out of the drama, and just focus on being the best.

Yes, but I don't recall a seemingly never ending string of ex-Dupont Wrestlers being involved in or publicly saying really crazy sh!it.


I think this is a poor analogy. DuPont was nothing but a bankroll who funded olympic wrestlers so he could hang out with olympic wresters, he himself was physically sad and couldn't out-wrestle a puppy. "His wrestlers" entertained him for the financial support, but he had nothing to do with their skill level or the aquisition of it.

LI, no matter how much it upsets people, is a very high level bjj artist and instructor and he made that team what it was.

Also, no matter how much hate you have for the guy, who most if not all of us have never even met, comparing him to a man who has an actual mental illness and murdered Dave Schultz because he was going to leave the estate and go coach at Stanford is so stupid it's offensive.


The claims made against Lloyd are that he had a history of doing unethical things or strange things. My intention was never to claim he was a murderer or on that level nor claim he did anything illegal. It was simply to say, that for those who can't understand why a people would still train with him. It was all about an opportunity for them to better themselves. Obviously he was offering something valuable to them and they may not have been aware of what was going on or it may not have been going on at all.

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