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BJJGround Forum >> Anyone else reading Choque by Roberto Pedreira?


8/5/14 1:51 PM
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sosy1325
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I started reading it a couple weeks ago. I enjoyed Jiu Jitsu in the South Zone, so I figured I'd give this one a shot.

It's fairly dry reading, but the history major in me appreciates the effort Pedreira put in.

I can give clffs to anyone who doesn't feel like trudging through it, but I would definitely recommend it to anyone really interested in MMA/BJJ history.
8/5/14 2:04 PM
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ChipW
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Edited: 08/05/14 2:07 PM
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Been lots of threads on it but by all means, put up the cliff notes.  

I read it and liked it.    

I cant wait for the second vol.  I think the years from the 50's on are when Jiu-jitsu, vale tudo and MMA as we know it really took off.  

8/5/14 2:10 PM
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sosy1325
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Really? The only thread I saw was on the Hawaii Ground and that was a few weeks ago. No many people seemed that have read it yet then.
8/5/14 2:35 PM
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ChipW
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http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/thread/1975319/The-Hazy-Origins-of-BJJ/?&page=1

 

http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/thread/1413196/George-Mehdi-and-non-Gracie-lineage-BJJ/?&page=1

 

lots of discussion in those threads.  Title of the book wasnt mentioned in the thread header but its brought up a lot in both of those discussions 

 

8/5/14 2:44 PM
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sosy1325
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Touche, Chip. Damn those threads go back far, too!
8/5/14 4:41 PM
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shark tank
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I just go mine today. I will start reading once I'm done with Enson's book. I was surprised by the size of this book. Much longer than Jiu jitsu in the South Zone.
8/5/14 5:09 PM
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raleigh
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just ordered. I hope its not as dry as you say.
8/5/14 5:25 PM
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falsecrack
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raleigh - just ordered. I hope its not as dry as you say.

its not, its worse

8/5/14 5:31 PM
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TheBearStare
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In for info Phone Post 3.0
8/5/14 6:05 PM
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sosy1325
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shark tank - I just go mine today. I will start reading once I'm done with Enson's book. I was surprised by the size of this book. Much longer than Jiu jitsu in the South Zone.

What is the actual page count for yours? I have the Kindle version and I just noticed that I'm apparently only 20% through, even though I'm well into the 1930s period. I think his notes section (which is quite large I believe) is included in the percentage.
8/5/14 6:11 PM
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Stymie
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I enjoyed it. I may read it again. Phone Post 3.0
8/5/14 6:13 PM
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sosy1325
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Some interesting take aways for me so far:

The late 19th/early 20th century fight scene in Brazil was more WWF than UFC in many ways.

Every fighter was seemingly a champion of something or somewhere ("luta-livre champion of Minas Gerais, jiu jitsu champion of Rio, boxing champion of New York" etc.).

Many of the fights ended in draws or had confusing or misunderstood rules.



8/5/14 7:15 PM
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ChipW
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sosy1325 - Some interesting take aways for me so far:

The late 19th/early 20th century fight scene in Brazil was more WWF than UFC in many ways.

Every fighter was seemingly a champion of something or somewhere ("luta-livre champion of Minas Gerais, jiu jitsu champion of Rio, boxing champion of New York" etc.).

Many of the fights ended in draws or had confusing or misunderstood rules.



Yeah, I was surprised by a lot of the same stuff.
I had this romanticized notion that all the fights were "vale Tudo" style and similar to pride or something. I don't know why I thought that, I just did.
The reality, based on those news paper clippings, was quite a bit different Phone Post 3.0
8/5/14 7:22 PM
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raleigh
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falsecrack - 
raleigh - just ordered. I hope its not as dry as you say.

its not, its worse


Damn it!
8/5/14 7:31 PM
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sosy1325
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ChipW - 
sosy1325 - Some interesting take aways for me so far:

The late 19th/early 20th century fight scene in Brazil was more WWF than UFC in many ways.

Every fighter was seemingly a champion of something or somewhere ("luta-livre champion of Minas Gerais, jiu jitsu champion of Rio, boxing champion of New York" etc.).

Many of the fights ended in draws or had confusing or misunderstood rules.



Yeah, I was surprised by a lot of the same stuff.
I had this romanticized notion that all the fights were "vale Tudo" style and similar to pride or something. I don't know why I thought that, I just did.
The reality, based on those news paper clippings, was quite a bit different Phone Post 3.0

I had modest hopes for something along the lines of JCVD's "The Quest" movie. Lol. Mustachioed wrestlers and boxers throwing hands in some smokey, dimly lit circus tent and all that. Roughly same time period after all.
8/6/14 2:20 AM
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FingerorMoon
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Totally rewrites known bjj history using still existing newspaper sources.

Was really an eye opener. Phone Post 3.0
8/6/14 3:58 AM
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deepu
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Amazing research went into this book. Phone Post 3.0
8/6/14 4:18 AM
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falsecrack
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raleigh - 
falsecrack - 
raleigh - just ordered. I hope its not as dry as you say.

its not, its worse


Damn it!

lol, no worries, its dry but interesting because the info presented is a counter narrative to story we've been fed for decades.  it just gets a bit repetitive at times.  I think the author presents the info like this in order to a bit more objective as he sometimes just takes quotes straight from the newspapers

8/6/14 9:33 AM
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circusmonkey
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I really loved reading his chronicles over the years which I presumed was the template for his book, since they were no longer accessible on "global-training report" right before the volume was published. He was going to Brazil at a time when we had fewer, mostly "old school" pioneer instructors & competitors peppered through out the U.S. and there was still a good amount of mystery as to what goes on in Brazil at some of the gyms in terms of mat culture and training methods. Now we have excellent video productions like BJJ Hacks and the like, but that does not detract at all from his early perspective. I feel he is a pioneer in his own right.
8/6/14 10:18 AM
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sosy1325
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circusmonkey - I really loved reading his chronicles over the years which I presumed was the template for his book, since they were no longer accessible on "global-training report" right before the volume was published. He was going to Brazil at a time when we had fewer, mostly "old school" pioneer instructors & competitors peppered through out the U.S. and there was still a good amount of mystery as to what goes on in Brazil at some of the gyms in terms of mat culture and training methods. Now we have excellent video productions like BJJ Hacks and the like, but that does not detract at all from his early perspective. I feel he is a pioneer in his own right.

Well said.
8/6/14 10:47 AM
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shark tank
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History is seldom a 'fun' read.
8/6/14 10:58 AM
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sosy1325
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shark tank - History is seldom a 'fun' read.

I disagree, but to each their own. It's more about writing style and organization than topic.
8/6/14 8:51 PM
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SpiderRicco
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I purchased both Choque and South Zone. Initial read was Choque but drifted a little so I put it down for now and started reading South Zone. No other reason other than undiagnosed ADD.
8/7/14 9:57 AM
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Hywel Teague
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shark tank - History is seldom a 'fun' read.
Depends how it's written. In this case Roberto has eschewed any form of narrative or dramatic slant in favour of pure known (or to be precise, reported) facts.

Still it's a great resource and I'm eagerly looking forward to part 2. Phone Post 3.0
8/7/14 11:34 AM
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sosy1325
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Hywel Teague - 
shark tank - History is seldom a 'fun' read.
Depends how it's written. In this case Roberto has eschewed any form of narrative or dramatic slant in favour of pure known (or to be precise, reported) facts.

Still it's a great resource and I'm eagerly looking forward to part 2. Phone Post 3.0

Agreed. I'm also looking forward to part 2. I'm sure many people in the BJJ community will be more familiar with the people and events (or at least with what we think we know) of the time period the second part will cover, so it might be an easier read. Pedreira might be an amateur historian, but I can tell you he did a great job in making a clear distinction between his own voice and the information he was presenting, and the observations he does make come across as reasonable.

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