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DantheWolfMan UnderGround >> Stuff about negotiation?


7/17/02 10:38 PM
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casmarcos
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Edited: 17-Jul-02
Member Since: 01-Jan-01
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Tony or anyone on this forum, I have your PDR Manual and the Cerebral self defense audio tapes. They are great! Now, I am interested in reading/listening more stuff about how to negotiate with a criminal. I mean, how to talk with him/her. Any recommendations? Marcos
7/18/02 6:55 PM
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Edited: 18-Jul-02
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Marcos: Could you be more specific? When you say "criminal" are you asking how to negotiate/talk to someone who has been convicted of a crime, is in the act of committing a crime, or people in general? What is the scenario? If you mean defusing an assault or mugging is this person angry with you, is this person a street thug who mugs people for a living? These are some of the questions that popped into my head when I read your question. Rob Gebhart
7/19/02 1:01 AM
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casmarcos
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Edited: 19-Jul-02
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Sorry Rob. I was meaning someone who is trying to mug me or someone who take me as a hostage. But I was meaning someone who do this for a living. The wish to know about it appeared because at my city it is becoming an everyday action, to kidnap someone for a while and ask for money. The criminals are not proffesionals but they are doing it for a living. But the big problem started a few day ago when two persons who were taken as a hostage, appeared dead, even after their families payed to the criminals. I hope someone can help a bit with this "problem". It is not easy, but people is very scared here. Marcos
7/19/02 11:19 AM
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PMAPower
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Edited: 19-Jul-02 11:24 AM
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Hi Marcos, Most of the advanced Team members, Coach Blauer included, will be in WEST POINT until early next week, so you may not hear from them until then. Rob made a great point about being succinct in your questioning however, and the clearer the question, the easier it will be for the Team to give you solid reply. Chad Power
7/19/02 11:28 PM
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JJS
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Edited: 19-Jul-02
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Marcos, Just a few quick thoughts as you said you have the PDR Manual and audio tapes. 1. The 10 Commandments - #7 Thou shalt not invite disaster. Really evaluate your routine and understand were you would be most likely to be attacked. Start to visualize how you would avoid the the potential situation before it even gets to a verbal defuse to create a "mental blueprint". 2. It may sound simple but your post seems to indicate that a vehicle may have been involved in the in- cidents (You mentioned kidnapping, were they possibly dragged or tricked into entering a car?) How would you be more aware of moving and parked vehicles? It harder for a vehicle to suprise you if you are walking in the direction of on- coming traffic. Even a parked car facing you puts the door between you and your attacker when they open it to get out giving you a valuable extra second or two to escape. Cross the street when your intuition alerts you to those two guys leaning on the vehicle your walking towards. Of the 3 D's really think through that first one of Detect. What ever the scenario think through possible avoidences and escapes. Whether it is a vehicle on the street, a parking garage, an alley your walking in a secluded park. Hope this helps out. Joe Skovira
7/20/02 3:33 PM
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casmarcos
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Edited: 20-Jul-02
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Thank you Chad and Joe. Joe, almost always there is a vehicle involved. The most common scenarios are: 1) You are driving you car when suddenly a car close your street in front of you. You have to stop the car in order to avoid crashing you car. At that moment, to guys get off the car and approaches you running when pointing you with guns telling you to go to the backseat. They enter your car and you are kidnapped. 2) You are about to enter your car into your garage, usually at night when no one is around, and suddenly a car approaches really fast, two man get off the car and point you with a gun. Then, they are inside your house and you are kidnapped. Difficult situations! Marcos
7/20/02 6:40 PM
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temp152885
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Edited: 20-Jul-02 06:52 PM
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Wow, sounds like a perfect opportunity to do some scenario / attack specific training. Marcos, if you have training buddies that you can be scenario specific and attack specific in your sitiuations and then break it down in a "fight within a fight" methodology it may help. "The scenario will dictate" is one of the theorems or formulas that will guide you in your potential solutions. You gave some specifics to the scenarios, but I will dig a little deeper....Are you alone in your car or is a child with you?, is it day or night, do you have improvised weapons, is it 1 or more kidnappers...what is your background and training? Why would they want you in the first place....were you a criminal witness against them in a court case?...are you a wealthy business man who is worth a randsom? ......what is the scenario and their motivation. Generally, people will approach you with a weapon(kidnap) you for one of 3 reasons... your property, your body, or to kill you ...which is it? This will also dictate your windows of opportunity. This will also help you dictate your strategy Joe Mullings
7/21/02 4:45 PM
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taroson
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Edited: 21-Jul-02
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Marcos, Joe S., Joe M., and Chad have given some really great advice here... Remember the 3 D's as you apply the Evaluate Your Routine formula from the PDR Manual. Detect: You seem to have a pretty good idea of how these kidnapping incidents are set up. Now look at things you can do such as driving with extra space between you and the car in front of you so that you can automatically foil the bad guys plan at stopping suddenly and cutting off your escape routes. Decide where, when and how you would attack you, and then formulate plans in advance. Write out things you could say that would possibly 'De-Fuse' or at least interrupt your attackers plan. "I've just lost my home to the bank and we have to be out buy the end of the month. The government has frozen all my bank accounts and..." Be creative but use your own words. You may de-fuse or at least slow down the attack long enough to fight back and/or escape to safety. Defend: work scenarios from inside the car vs weapons, multiple opponents, with and without your family, etc. as Mr. Mullings suggested. As you are driving explore different escape routes and drive, run and walk them. See what you come up with. How about improvised weapons? Check inside the car and around all the areas you travel. Do your homework and don't give in to F.E.A.R. Know that you will fight back, do your wish list and then get on with your life. Be prepared not paranoid. Good Luck, train hard and take care, Mike Suyematsu, PDR Coach.
7/21/02 7:12 PM
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casmarcos
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Edited: 21-Jul-02
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Wow! Joe and Mike, thank you very much for your answers. Now, just to know... what would you do in a scenario like this? More info: they want money (between $500 and $5000, not too much). They are not prepared to keep a hostage for a long time. The hostages are usually released in two hours. You are alone. The kidnappers are three, and all of them with guns. This is the most common scenario. Marcos
7/22/02 12:43 AM
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taroson
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Edited: 22-Jul-02
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Marcos, I remember Mr. Blauer telling us that "Reality only happens once." To be completely honest, I can't say what I would do for sure... The better question would be, what would YOU do? And that is where YOUR training comes in. Why wonder what others would do when you can begin experimenting with your training? Just some food for thought my friend. Take Care, Mike Suyematsu/PDR Coach
7/22/02 2:04 AM
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AdamLaClair
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Edited: 22-Jul-02
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Interesting and thought provoking thread. Some good posts, guys. There are two points I would like to make: 1.) From above, repeated and paraphrased, "Detect: You seem to have a pretty good idea of how these kidnapping incidents are set up.........Decide where, when and how you would attack you, and then formulate plans in advance. Write out things........at least interrupt your attackers plan." Great advice. The ancient strategist Sun Tzu wrote: "The height of strategy is to attack your opponents strategy." In this case, that may be the best advice. It is going to be really tough to defend against multiple assailants, both armed with freedom of movement, while you are in a confined-space environment. Your best bet may be to try to find patterns in their actions and then figure out how to avoid those patterns. When they block off the streets, is it always a certain part of town? Are those streets avoidable somehow? If not, would it be feasible to hit their car with yours? (Assuming your seat belt is on, they are not likely to expect such a counter, which now shifts the element of surprise to your favor.) They are assuming you will stop, what happens if you don't? Could you then reverse directions and take another route, while they are recovering from the unexpected collision? I am NOT recommending this, but simply showing it as an option I might consider if the scenario details would make it a realistic action. I would think it might be better to defend with your car and try to flee, than allow them to "capture" you by surrounding your car. Again, though, it is a decision you would have to make, in the moment, in accordance with everything that is happening. Also, how exactly are they blocking the street? They must be able to see you coming, so is there any way you could identify the possible danger visually before you get to their position, and alter your route? Again, it is hard for anyone to decide what can be done unless you are there in the moment, but these are things to think about, which may also lead you to new realizations and observations about their methods of operation and possible ways to undermine their efforts. 2.) When going home, and no one is around, and a car approaches really fast, it seems obvious that one of two things is happening. a.) they have been following you from a distance for some time, waiting for this opportunity. Try to be aware, ESPECIALLY when heading home, if you are being followed. (Never let the bad guys know where you live when you can help it, although in this case it may not be the first time they have followed you) b.) Although you may not think anyone is around, could it be the victims are simply not noticing their assailants sitting in their car, parked a little ways down the street? Perhaps an extra drive around the neighborhood before pulling into the house would help DETECT a suspicious looking car, parked in an odd location, or simply one that seems foreign to the neighborhood. If you spot such a car, instead of heading home, GET OUT of the neighborhood, make sure you are not followed, and call the cops and report it. Follow their instructions from there. To me, the 3 D's are critical here. DETECT the danger as soon as possible, including doing what you can to anticipate it BEFORE you become a victim. DEFUSE it before it happens by attacking their strategy. Once they have you, I think your verbal communication will be more focused on staying alive than on talking them out of action they have obviously committed to and planned to follow through on. What does it cost you to take a couple extra minutes and be cautious? Or what could it cost you if you aren't diligent in your awareness? I hope this gives you some things to think about. I'm sure Mr. Blauer will have some insights as well, but I believe he will be out of town for a few more days. Stay Safe, Adam LaClair Personal Defense Readiness Team
7/22/02 10:52 AM
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casmarcos
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Edited: 22-Jul-02
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Great posts. I guess I have started a very useful discussion. A lot of things to think about. Thank you guys. Now, let me a few days to eat the food. Marcos
7/25/02 2:02 AM
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ironmongoose
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Edited: 25-Jul-02
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Hey, this looks FUN, I'll read the whole thread later. In addition to your CSD:ME tape, the Science of the Sucker Punch is a great video. Also, the following will amuse and instruct you: http://www.righteouswarriortemple.org/New%20Folder/freaks.htm IM
7/28/02 2:37 PM
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casmarcos
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Edited: 28-Jul-02
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Thank you IM, great article. No, I dont live in Brazil. Why? I actually live in Argentina, next to Brazil. Marcos
7/28/02 5:23 PM
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AlbertaPDR
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Edited: 28-Jul-02 09:48 PM
Member Since: 02-Jun-02
Posts: 11
Casmarcos, You have painted some very vivid scenarios and given everyone a lot to ponder and think about. As a part of the PDR Team, each and everyone of us are OPTIONS facilitators. There is no blue or red pill that will magically put you to your ultimate destination...SAFETY. By telling you specifically "what to do", we are inadvertently keeping you helpless. Ponder that for a moment. You need to create a formula to enhance your survivability...a map to your destination. Here are some things for you to consider: 1) The first place you are attacked is emotionally and psychologically. This is the most important part of the fight to train. The physical realm will not serve its purpose without a strong foundation of the physiology of FEAR (biological) and the psychology of FEAR (cycle of behavior model). FEAR will be present so do not deny that its there, but do not let it overcome you. There are many stategies to deal with the FEAR. In the above scenarios you have described, we can come to the conclusion that these perpetrators are the 3 percenter....the hunter. They have already formulated a directive, plan and the end result. Now having said that, we can create strategies to act upon their INTENTION rather than only the ACTION. The fact that this type of crime seems prevalent in your communitites, you have a certain degree of awareness already.....empower yourself with that thought. Now, ask yourself what is next!!!! 2) Understand that behavior is present in everything that is around you including YOU. In the negotiation phase your body langauge and the verbage must be congruous with what is happening at each moment.If there is a flux in your behavior that is not in support of the scenario your opponent will naturally respond indifferently...possibly compromising your stall or surprise tactics/stategies. Or even accelerating theres'. 3) Everyone has already mentioned to re-create scenarios that will enhance you OPTIONS in case this ever happens to you. Ultimately, you must be creative...there are an endless amount of possibilites. Each time you re-create the holy shit moment, you have actually been in that fight, emotionally, psychologically and physically, but you must do your homework. Remember, that each scenario you work through has to have emotional content...without it you are robbing yourself of the education. I realize that all of this may be a mouthful to chew on. We must discuss and dissect the emotional, psychological and behavioral arenas in order to do the same for the physical. "Give your body permission and it will do brilliant things" - Tony Blauer There is obviously more to discuss, but I will leave it here for now. Keep it coming guys...this is a very important thread for all of us as trainers and as students. Robb Finlayson, PDR Coach www.tonyblauer.com
8/4/02 8:26 PM
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AlbertaPDR
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Edited: 04-Aug-02
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ttt
8/5/02 2:38 PM
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Varley
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Edited: 05-Aug-02
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"Understand that behavior is present in everything that is around you including YOU. In the negotiation phase your body langauge and the verbage must be congruous with what is happening at each moment.If there is a flux in your behavior that is not in support of the scenario your opponent will naturally respond indifferently...possibly compromising your stall or surprise tactics/stategies. Or even accelerating theres'." Robb , Could you expand on body language/verbage being congruous with each moment , and how our flux will affect our opponent ? ( perhaps with a few examples ) Thanx , Var
8/5/02 3:27 PM
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AlbertaPDR
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Edited: 05-Aug-02
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Var, When you are incorporating verbal stategies (choice speech and rapport creating)into a potential confrontation, the way you move your hands, your stance, movement of the eyes etc, must be congrous with what you are saying. Example. You are walking down the street and notice that there are a group of guys coming towards you and you get that bad feeling. One stategy would to appear to be extrememly agitated and looking around feverishly like someonelse is after you. Do not even give them a chance to mouth you off. Go up to them and ask them if they have seen two squad cars nearby and that your drug dealer would be pissed off if you get got. NOW...you behavior at that moment must be one of a paranoid street punk that is semi scared of getting caught by the police and feeling the "wrath" of the drug dealer boss if caught. You may ask these guys to be look outs for you etc.....the only limitations to this is your own creativity. You will not pass this over if your body language does not support the scenario you have created. Your opponents behavioral system will pick up anything that does not match what you are saying. If the behavior betrays you, your opponent will feel the flux and possibly accelerate into his original intent before you "interfered" . One thing to remember is to always stay detached and that you may have to trade one strategy in for another. Never expect only one will work. Dr. Cobb on the PDR Team came up with some good training ideas a while ago in regards to creating specific characters for your scenario training. One guy could be Bob the drunk asshole who always picks fights, another could be Keith, who is rapist, but is a smooth talker and has good rapport building skills. etc. The bottom line is that you cannot tell someone that you car is RED when he can plainly see that it is WHITE. You cannot verbally trash someone and have a big smile on you face, like you have not seen your best friend in 10 years. Could you imagine the behavioral alarms that would go off in your opponent if you were trying to calmy talk him down and negotiate while your eyes were looking him up and down rapidly. His system is going pick up on that and react accordingly. These are some of the most important tactics to work on in training because the strategies start on their INTENTIONS to act, rather than waiting for their ACTION. Robb Finlayson, PDR Team www.tonyblauer.com albertapdr@shaw.ca
8/5/02 10:18 PM
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casmarcos
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Edited: 05-Aug-02
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Robb, what do you exactly mean when you say "rapport creating strategy"? Could you give some examples of this? Marcos
8/5/02 10:28 PM
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casmarcos
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Edited: 05-Aug-02
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Robb, what do you exactly mean when you say "rapport creating strategy"? Could you give some examples of this? Marcos
8/5/02 11:02 PM
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AlbertaPDR
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Edited: 05-Aug-02
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Casmarcos, Basically,when you are creating rapport with someone you are creating an emotional connection or affinty with the opponent. An example of using rapport as a strategy could be when someone is verbally engaging you because he thought you took his parking spot. You could say that you had no idea and anyone who takes someonelses' parking spot is an asshole and that you will move right away. Now most likely this guy would be just a howler and using good de-fuse skills you can end the confrontation with a win-win. Of course the scenario dicates. What did it cost you to make the emotional connection with what he was already feeling in order to avoid the confrontation from escalating. My bet would be that he would say "YEAH and that it is no big deal" A person cannot sustain an adrenlin dump with support from YOU!! Another example could involve a bank robbery that you got caught in the middle of and were taken hostage. As a stategy of rapport creation, you could stand up and start flipping out about how the banks screw everyone and that you do not blame them for wanting to take their money blah blah blah. For that instance you may have made that connection with your opponent and create some flux in their immediate directive...enought time to engage physically or escape harms way. Again the scenario will dicate. As you can see that we can formulate some substantial strategies to enhance our ability to remain safe. Verbal strategies and rapport building must be in all of our training. Robb Finlayson, PDR TEAM www.tonyblauer.com albertapdr@shaw.ca
8/7/02 11:05 PM
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casmarcos
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Edited: 07-Aug-02
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Robb and all the people that answer my question, thank you very much. The answers really help me a lot (at usual :-) ) Marcos

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