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DantheWolfMan UnderGround >> Ground-Fighting Question


9/25/02 2:53 PM
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Malakhi
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Edited: 25-Sep-02
Member Since: 24-Sep-02
Posts: 0
 
Mr. Blauer, I have read several of your articles in various magazines over the past 2 years and I have a question inregards to your Ground-Fighting package. 1. Do you teach or advocate 'submission' techniques for street use? 2. I have only a very limited exposure to grappling/ground-fighting. Does your Ground-Fighting package coincide with your hand-to-hand material? Meaning, does it use the same principles, strategies and tactics? The only real exposure to ground-fighting is training with my partner in Nir Maman's Israeli Tactical Combatives system. He advocates neck breaks/manipulations, bucking the hips, eye gouges, throat tears, etc... I also have limited exposure to W. Hock Hochheim's hand-to-hand material on ground-fighting. Some good material. In some current SD/H2H systems, when being tackled or taken to the ground (single leg take-down, double leg, etc...) they are advocating "going limp". They teach that if you give the attacker no structure (i.e. stiffen body, tighten muscles, etc...) and rotate on the way down, that you will be in a superior position to end the fight. Have you ever tried this method of dealing with take-downs? If so, do you advocate it? Any flaws in it from your perspective? Thanks for your time. Mal'akhi PS, Keep up the great work! Personal Quote: Train Realistically to Survive Reality
9/26/02 8:49 AM
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Hissho
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Edited: 26-Sep-02 08:50 AM
Member Since: 01-Jan-01
Posts: 72
Mal'akhi, I'll let Tony lay out his ground stuff for you. I was somewhat confused with the description of his approach in a previous discussion so I ordered his Groundfighting vs. Armed Assailants tape and discovered that he is teaching very solid stuff. I don't think you would go wrong at all by investing in his stuff. As for the second question, in my opinion going limp/totally relaxing and rotating, without any base in actual ground skills and tactics, is suicidal in a combative situation. You will either be squashed into the ground, or, in rotating, find that your adversary is on your back. Something we all need to understand is that with the popularity of ground fighting systems, people are exploring many more options for dealing with ground fighting and ground fighters. This is a good thing. But there are also a lot of people in combatives and martial arts disciplines exploring the topic from a questionable skill base. They work their ground tactics against others - training partners or students - who also have little or no skill base for the ground. The stuff works because the adversary doesn't know what he is doing and is not familiar with the ground fighting environment. The reality is that there are plenty of folks out there, not JUST in Judo or BJJ but wrestlers and even football players, that very much do know how to put someone down and dominate them there. Hope that gets the wheels turning.
9/26/02 9:37 PM
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FJJ828
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Edited: 26-Sep-02
Member Since: 01-Jan-01
Posts: 212
NAPLES BRAZILIAN JIU JITSU L.L.C.
My $.02 1. Depends on the scenario. If it is a street defense situation where the cost of losing is death or serious bodily injury to yourself or another or is it a chest thumping contest (put up your dukes). Does the other person have the opportunity, capability & intent? Does he have the skill + the will? Do you? Generally, Mr Blauer uses grappling to set up strikes (Strike when you can. Grapple when you have to) as a tactical guideline. 2. From my exposure to Tony's material, I believe most if not all of the concepts apply to both stand up and ground situations. CWCT- Closest Weapon Closest Target, Non Violent Postures, Non Telegraphic Movements & not having an emotional attachment to a particular range of fighting are just a few. 3. Not sure what you mean by "going limp". "Rotating on the way down" implies active re-direction, a complex if not fine motor skill. This is different from limpness. Tactically it is probably not desirable to "go limp" as a default response to an attempted takedown. There may be an instant where being "relaxed" may help you avoid injury when impacting the ground however. Just MHO.
9/27/02 8:31 AM
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Hissho
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Edited: 27-Sep-02
Member Since: 01-Jan-01
Posts: 73
Let me clarify part of my post: Relaxation, as in relaxed application of trained skill and principle, is absolutely where you want to be. Note this doesn't mean "going limp," and that there is a huge difference between someone relaxing with trained skill and someone who just relaxes with the idea that it will forestall a grappler's ability. It won't, unless it is done from a practiced, tactical understanding of why and when you want to "go limp." Many disciplines teach a flowing, totally relaxed, no power no strength as a valid approach to combatives. It is fundamentally flawed because actual confrontations involve explosive speed, high impact and a tremendous amount of physical strength. So while yeah, it is much more efficient to be relaxed in a real confrontation, training must involve being relaxed, as far as you can be, against explosive speed, high impact, and physical strength. If you are training against a flowing, totally relaxed, no power adversary it is probably closer to dance than it is to fighting. Flow training has it place, as an exercise, as a part of a total package, standing or on the ground, that ALSO includes much more explosive and higher impact training as well. The test is what happens when the intent is real on the part of the opponent, or the assailant.
9/27/02 7:36 PM
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Tony Blauer
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Edited: 27-Sep-02
Member Since: 01-Jan-01
Posts: 226
Blauer Tactical Systems, Inc.
GOod answers guys, here's some thoughts from moi... 1. Do you teach or advocate 'submission' techniques for street use? NO. PERHAPS TONY TORRES, ONE OF THE LEAD TRAINERS ON MY TEAM CAN REPOST HIS 'SUBDUE VS SUBMIT' ARTICLE, 2. I have only a very limited exposure to grappling/ground- fighting. Does your Ground-Fighting package coincide with your hand-to-hand material? Meaning, does it use the same principles, strategies and tactics? ABSOLUTELY, A RESEARCHED SYSTEM ALWAYS DOES INTERCONNECT. FLETCH'S REPLY WAS PRETTY ACCURATE. The only real exposure to ground-fighting is training with my partner in Nir Maman's Israeli Tactical Combatives system. He advocates neck breaks/manipulations, bucking the hips, eye gouges, throat tears, etc... THOSE ARE CHOICE TACTICS, WHILE THEY SOUND GORY AND GLORIOUS, THEY ALSO MUST SUIT THE SCENARIO. IF YOUR LIFE WERENT IN DANGER AND YOU TRIED TO APPLY THOSE MOVES YOU MAY FIND YOURSELF IN MORE TROUBLE AFTER THE FIGHT THAN YOU WERE DURING THE FIGHT :-) FORCE MUST PARALLEL DANGER. I also have limited exposure to W. Hock Hochheim's hand-to- hand material on ground-fighting. Some good material. In some current SD/H2H systems, when being tackled or taken to the ground (single leg take-down, double leg, etc...) they are advocating "going limp". They teach that if you give the attacker no structure (i.e. stiffen body, tighten muscles, etc...) and rotate on the way down, that you will be in a superior position to end the fight. THAT IS SILLY AND HISSHO SPELLED IT OUT, I THINK HE USED THE LETTERS THAT FORM THE WORD 'SUICIDAL IN A COMBATIVE SITUATION' :-) GOING LIMP AS A SPONTANEOUS INTUITVE CHOICE FOR A NANO MOMENT IN A HOLYSHIT MOMENT IN A FIGHT MAY BEAR FRUIT, USING IT AS A DEFAULT TACTIC...NO. DISAGREE. Have you ever tried this method of dealing with take-downs? If so, do you advocate it? Any flaws in it from your perspective? FLAWS. TOO MANY TO LIST. DELAING WITH TAKEDOWNS, THATS A SPORT MODEL WE TRY TO AVOID. IF YORE SERIOUS WITH ALL THIS YOU NEED TO EITHER GET WITH ONE OF MY PDR COACHES OR GET A COUPLEOF OUR GROUND TAPES. THE SPEACIAL PACAKAGE OFFERS QUITE A SERIOUS DISCOUNT SO YOU MIGHT WANT TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THAT. GOOD LUCK, THANKS FOR THE QUESTIONS. TONY
9/29/02 3:09 PM
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P
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Edited: 29-Sep-02
Member Since: 01-Jan-01
Posts: 69
Mal'akhi, I completely agree with Coach Blauer that you really need to research the material in person or on video. IMO the best tapes for learning to deal with the tackles are "How to Beat a Grappler" and "Advanced SPEAR Applications for MMA". If you're looking for excellent breakdowns of the 'Rear Strangle' and 'Armbar from the bottom' check out "Ballistic Groundfighting". Then, take the most important step and..apply them in your training. Phil PS- Feel free to e-mail me at the office: phil@tonyblauer.com if you need any help.
9/29/02 6:21 PM
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truart
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Edited: 29-Sep-02 06:24 PM
Member Since: 01-Jan-01
Posts: 13
Hi all! Here is a re-submission(pun intended) of my post from a long time ago. Tony T Subdue vs. Submit: A Ground fighting Re-Frame One of the most important lessons I learned from Coach Blauer was the subtle art of reframing. Words can be very powerful and, paraphrasing one of Mr. Blauer’s maxims, the way we define something can have a direct effect on the way we train. Because of this, a while back I decided to stop using the phrase submission fighting when practicing or training my students. I only occasionally use it as a reference to the sport model. You see to submit is a voluntary act by our opponent. The dictionary defines it as “to yield one self to the authority or will of another.” The opponent submits to you, he gives up. In BTCMS we are always preparing for the 3%’r. That sociopath who’s intent is to kill or maim you. Someone who might not be feeling any pain due to adrenaline or drug use. When training for this most dangerous of individuals a reframe was needed. I started using the term subdual fighting. To subdue is defined as “to conquer and bring into subjection, to bring under control especially by an exertion of the will.” It is something we do to our opponent. As a police officer, when I encountered resistance, I had to subdue more suspects than I had submit Considers this deeply, if the person you are fighting has no intention of submitting, you must subdue him. How does this change the way you look at your “favorite” tactic? How does it affect the way you train? Using this reframe made me change the way I conducted several drills as well as discard some tactics that did not directly help me achieve the objective: subdue the opponent. What is amazing about this reframe is that it has a reverse application as well. When I train, my mindset is that I will not submit to my opponent. He will have to work extremely hard to try to subdue me. There might be some English PhD out there that might read this and say the word subdual does not exist. But if creating a new word or phrase enhances my survivability, makes my training more intense and street effective, and makes me more dangerous to the bad guy… at least I’ll be around to take that “F” professor. Tony Torres BTS LEO Team PDR Team torres@tonyblauer.com
10/1/02 12:32 PM
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Hissho
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Edited: 01-Oct-02
Member Since: 01-Jan-01
Posts: 74
Danny, Again, not answering for Tony, but my own thoughts and experiences as an LEO have been this: In a street fight, LEO or civilian, you want to control your adversaries hands. Why? Weapons. Now some subs I think are completely viable in the street, but not because they are "submissions." Restricting air flow is always good except that you need to be aware that it will tie both your hands up. I often use a kimura with the bad guy on his side...I can control one hand, I can kneel on his other arm to control that, thus taking both out of the picture. BUT I don't crank it any more than I need to to establish control because I am more worried about him getting his hands free than I am about damaging his joints or getting him to "quit." I'd rather control his body completely rather than rely on his saying "uncle." I am also geared toward stabilizing him in such a way so that I can free up one of my hands as quickly as possible to whack him or access MY weapon in case his buddies show up. I also prefer having my weight on top of the guy. That way I can keep my head up to see whats around me or I can disengage much more quickly if I start to lose control. Something like a drop juji takes my weight off of him, puts me on my back, it allows him a possible chance of escape, and in most cases it allows his other hand free where he can pull his knife or gun and go to town - he gets a popped capsule or broken joint while you bleed out. Not my idea of a good trade off. I think if you absolutely have to go to gaurd any arm bars or triangles or whatever you get should be used for leverage to roll the guy off of you. Try to get to hands (both) under control or if you can't get him over get one of your hands free to pummel/draw a weapon. A ground fight by yourself can quickly turn into a lethal threat situation if he is armed or has friends to help him out. Strikes are much more practical because you can control the bad guys hands while pummeling him and they open up positions for roll overs or escape if you end up on the bottom. There is a reason that ground and pound is such an effective method for the ring. In the street the issue is the same, except that you (or the bad guy) can pull his knife while pinning you to the ground and it will become more like slice and dice! My .02

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