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Jen >> Realistic resistance?


3/22/07 5:29 PM
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Bolo
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Edited: 22-Mar-07
Member Since: 01/01/2001
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One thing that bugs the crap out of me is when I hear that people want to see "realistic resistance" when instructors demonstrate techniques on instructional videos. What is the definition of realistic resistance? Let's understand that unless you see come competition footage, the resistance that is given is never realistic. First, the instructor is making an instructional video. The person who is having the technique done on them is not trying to make the instructor look bad or "win". Second, it is not difficult to make a single technique not work when you know exactly what technique it is and knowing that the instructor is not going to do any other technique. In a competitive match, the opponent is trying to make your technique not work on him. In an instructional video, the partner does not have that same goal. In addition, what the opinion of what kind of resistance is realistic is purely subjective. For example, if I were to teach someone how to pin, I could ask Joe Moreira to escape my pin to show you some realistic resistance. Well, then you wouldn't see much pinning at all. I could get some other black belt who was not very good at pin escapes and pin him, but then, in my opinion, that resistance is not very "realistic" and it was simply a matter of the other black belt sucking at pin escapes. This ultimately comes down to the fact that many people in BJJ don't think critically for themselves and are stuck in the "sheep" mentality. Rather than figuring out when, why, and how the technique works on their own, they want to see some sort of evidence and be convinced that it does work. That is the mentality of a follower rather than a leader. That is the mentality of someone who follows every trend rather than an innovator. That mentality of someone who is always several steps behind rather than several steps ahead. For example, Eddie Bravo did not wait for someone else to start doing the Twister consistantly in BJJ competition before he started to do it himself. If you want to know whether or not a technique works for you then simply analyze it, practice it, and try to do it over and over in training. What ultimately determines if a technique works is not what someone instructor says or what footage you see of someone else doing it, but rather the work you put into it.
3/22/07 10:06 PM
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cincibill
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Edited: 22-Mar-07
Member Since: 05/21/2006
Posts: 95
"I really believe one big reason critical thinking is not done as much in BJJ is because we are often taught not to question the higher authorities of BJJ." Those guys that ask for realistic resistance are simply questioning the higher authorities of BJJ:)
3/23/07 12:06 AM
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Bolo
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Edited: 23-Mar-07
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 4754
So what is the question that is asked which demonstrates critical thinking? Is the question, "Does it really work?" That is not a question that demonstrates critical thinking. That is a question simply to make themselves feel better and make them feel like they got some sort of confirmation.
3/23/07 5:54 AM
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cdog1955
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Edited: 23-Mar-07
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 481
Asking to see techs done against resistance is not about seeing if the tech works (i'm speaking just for myself), I have no doubt the tech will work in the right circumstance and with the right timing. It's about seeing it put together, how the instructors uses it as a tool at the correct time, in the correct way. Take your pin series, the section where Joe escapes your pin, or the dvd you made of Joe's training matches against you and the others, that stuff is great. Not only that, with the voice over with you explaining things really helps to see how to look at matches.
3/23/07 12:17 PM
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Bolo
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Edited: 23-Mar-07 11:27 AM
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Within the instruction, the instructor has already stated and demonstrates the correct time and way for the technique to be used. There's nothing wrong with studying real live grappling footage. The footage you are referring to is completely different. My point is that the "realistic resistance" that people are asking for is not really realistic in any way, therefore, you truly don't gaining what you think you are from it.
3/23/07 12:43 PM
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JasonGV
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Edited: 23-Mar-07
Member Since: 02/07/2005
Posts: 1715
Have you seen the carlos machado series bolo?
3/23/07 12:48 PM
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Bolo
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Edited: 23-Mar-07 01:36 PM
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NO, I haven't seen the series, just the sample clips. ------------ By the way, asking to see how an instructor handles a specific form of resistance when training in person is something completely different. That is asking something very specific. I'm just talking about instructional videos. When it comes to resistances, there are hundreds of different things an opponent can do. Each minute change that the opponent does changes the technique you are trying to do in some way. This is not something you can learn from watching someone else do.
3/23/07 6:54 PM
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bjjprim8
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Edited: 23-Mar-07
Member Since: 06/19/2003
Posts: 2549
Bolo, You are 100% correct, but I think I already said that on a thread that I am going to guess you were reading. Jason, The Machados are not realistic resistance so please stop with that. It is dance nothing more. Short of going all out or it being a comp it is not real sparring or resistance.
3/23/07 11:02 PM
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cincibill
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Edited: 23-Mar-07
Member Since: 05/21/2006
Posts: 96
Bolo, Its kind of like porn, they're not making love but you want them pounding away just like the real thing, full speed and resistance. I don't want them going slow speed with a broad that's just laying around ! I know I was guilty of asking for more live footage a couple years back. I agree completely with your reasoning and I'm not requesting that now, but I believe cdog1955 probably captured my sentiments at that time..."It's about seeing it put together, how the instructor uses it as a tool at the correct time, in the correct way." I wanted to see it for real. I wanted to see what came before and after. Chances are If I didn't see you do it, then I never saw anyone do it the correct way for real.
3/23/07 11:04 PM
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JasonGV
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Edited: 23-Mar-07
Member Since: 02/07/2005
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"The Machados are not realistic resistance so please stop with that. It is dance nothing more. Short of going all out or it being a comp it is not real sparring or resistance." Totally disagree. It may not by 100%, but it is effective enough to see the necessary changes and adjustments and helps the learning processes immensely. There are also tapes with real sparring, like baret yoshidas which help a lot as well.
3/23/07 11:40 PM
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bjjprim8
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Edited: 23-Mar-07 10:45 PM
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Jason, First off the Yoshidas have nothing to do with this and like you said it is real sparring. The Machado's are not real sparring and it isn't realistic resistance because realistic resistance is the other guy really trying to pass and not caring, or better yet not wanting you to perform your technique at all. Anything that is not real is fake and obviously this is something you can't grasp. It is either real rolling and competing with real resistance, or it's choreographed and has his partner feeding him the necessary cues in order for him to make the move look like it is working with resistance, but there really is no resistance at all. What you want is fake staged rolling to make you feel better about the moves and makes you believe they may work. Like bolo said I guess you fall into the sheep category. You need that reinforcement because you think that proves the move works which is completely laughable.
3/24/07 5:28 AM
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cdog1955
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Edited: 24-Mar-07
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 482
It also is what a person likes to watch. I can only speak for myself, but me wanting to watch something demostrated live isn't because i need proof, i really like watching that stuff. I like Mike's videos, therefor i bought Mike's videos, I didnt buy them because i needed proof his material worked, hell if i didn't think the stuff worked, i wouldnt have bought it!!! It's just personal preference or the like dislikes of what pleases the customer (for some, for some they may be looking for proof). The perfect instructional for me (at least in this stage of my developement) would be a technical section with detaled instrucion of the why's and why nots (Mike does this well), then an "inaction" section watching pin escapes, or mount escapes....etc with voice over.
3/24/07 5:51 AM
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JasonGV
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Edited: 24-Mar-07
Member Since: 02/07/2005
Posts: 1717
prim, one of those things in life you just have to understand is not everyone will agree with u:)
3/24/07 8:51 AM
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bjjprim8
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Edited: 24-Mar-07 07:59 AM
Member Since: 06/19/2003
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Cdog, Not to be a dink, but how would you know the stuff worked before you bought it? You had never seen it and didn't know what was on it. Now the second part of your dvd sounds like you want to see Mikes dynamic bjj dvds added but with the material shown? That's fine, why? Because it is real resistance and real rolling each guy is trying to beat the other and not trying to make the other look good. Jason, This isn't about agreeing with me. Either you understand that it is staged or not. Do you believe that Carlos' partner is really trying to pass his guard and is not feeding him the cues needed to perform the techinques for you to see what they look like in a simulated live environment? If you agree that this is a simulated live training session then this is no different than a karate guy who tells his student to throw a punch and he does his moves and then tells him throw your kick here etc. If it's not a real live sparring match where they are both trying to win and stop techniques from being applied while countering with their own, or it's a competition. If it isn't one of those two things it's not realistic. You are either smart enough and experienced enough to understand the difference between the two, or you aren't. It's not about agreeing on opinion, you either understand that one is real and the other is not or you don't and that means you don't know what BJJ sparring and competition really is compared to a staged event and that seems to be the case here.
3/24/07 8:57 AM
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bjjprim8
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Edited: 24-Mar-07
Member Since: 06/19/2003
Posts: 2562
Jason, I would also like to say I would prefer someone like Bolo agrees with me and a number of other BBs then some obvious guy who probably doesn't even have a blue belt yet and doesn't know the difference between real sparring and staged demonstrations the latter would be you in case you didn't know =)
3/24/07 9:58 AM
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cdog1955
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Edited: 24-Mar-07
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 483
bjjprim8........you make a good point, could i prove Mike's (or anyone else that produces an instructional) worked ? No I couldn't. BUT I made assumptions based on things i saw, read, thought about. Example, I read Mike trained with Joe M, Roy H, and at the time i first bought one of his instructionals he had attained the rank of brown belt, so i took a chance on purchasing the video. I liked what i saw. Fast forward a few yrs later, i was looking for info on pin escapes, i looked what was offered, Mike's description of his instructional was exactly what i was looking for, and since i liked what he did as a brwon belt, i was pretty sure i would like his stuff as a black belt, with yrs more experience under his belt,and again, while i couldn't prove what he presented worked, i reasoned it would probably work IF i applied as he suggested. I will add one more thing, if he or anyone else i consider a very good player ( again that is an assumption, heck even a guess) put out video of them escaping pins, or passing gaurds ( or any subject matter i was interested in)over and over i would probably purchase it! Nice discussing with you!
3/24/07 11:00 AM
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bjjprim8
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Edited: 24-Mar-07
Member Since: 06/19/2003
Posts: 2566
Cdog, I agree 100% with what you said, but there is no 100% certainty you are just hoping they will be good at the end of the day. We only know if something is good when you have seen it. I will give you an example, Martin Rooney put out an exercise dvd that was pretty bad. He is well known and trains a lot of famous fighters and is considered one of the top guys in the business. The problem was the DVD played more like a documentary than an instructional companion to his book. A lot of exercises were performed incorrectly and the camera work was something left to be desired etc. You never know for sure till you buy something, but educated guess usually turn out pretty good.
3/24/07 4:36 PM
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m.g
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Edited: 24-Mar-07 03:56 PM
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 5130
Bolo You said: "This ultimately comes down to the fact that many people in BJJ don't think critically for themselves and are stuck in the "sheep" mentality. Rather than figuring out when, why, and how the technique works on their own, they want to see some sort of evidence and be convinced that it does work. That is the mentality of a follower rather than a leader." This is very true. BUT it is a problem for people in general and not just Bjj. People (some people, actually alot of people) are not very discerning nor do they put in any effort or time to develop the ability to discern. The reason probably is most people just don't care which is a shame. You also said: "If you want to know whether or not a technique works for you then simply analyze it, practice it, and try to do it over and over in training. What ultimately determines if a technique works is not what someone instructor says or what footage you see of someone else doing it, but rather the work you put into it." Once again this is pure common sense. But again it comes down to people's own willingness to LEARN and UNDERSTAND for themselves. And the fact of the matter is MOST people simply are not "willing". They base their learning, knowing and understanding on someone elses experience which is a big shame. If people actually were more interested in testing out and find out first hand from their own experience than they wouldn't even have to worry about whether a what they are seeing is against realistic resistance or is "fake". Whether a technique is done against "real" resistance or is done in a "fake" demo it really means nothing in terms of working for me until I actually use the technique myself. The concept is called "proving" and proving can only be personally. One can't "prove" something through someone elses experience. So the whole idea of a fake or real demo is just plain stupid and ultimately is irrelevant IF you're all about "proving" things because the person you see doing the technique, whether live against a resisting opponent or in demo is NOT YOU! Incidently, proving in this context simply means test and trying for yourself. It involves analyzing, practicing, and trying over and over in training.
3/28/07 3:06 PM
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chickenfeet
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Edited: 28-Mar-07
Member Since: 10/03/2004
Posts: 737
how about just using the term "semi-realistic resistance"

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