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Jen >> Ground vs. Treadmill


4/3/07 4:46 PM
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Bolo
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Edited: 03-Apr-07
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I made a post in the past talking about how treamills were not good for the body, despite being used and advocated by some of the "best" strength and conditioning trainers. In an article I wrote, I state, "...according to the laws of physics, the treadmill or elliptical machine does not mimic any sort of movement that exists in reality. When we walk on the ground, we are pushing ourselves away from the ground. Walking on the ground works very specific muscles in a very specific way. With the treadmill, you are not pushing yourself away from the ground; you are just lifting your legs. The ground is moving away from you, which does not happen in reality... As mentioned before, the more the body engages in movements it was not designed to do, the more it begins to shift away from its original functional design." As I was browsing on the internet I came across this interesting study on running on the ground versus the treadmill: The purpose of this study was to compare the kinematics of an elite runner on and off the treadmill. We hypothesized that treadmill running would alter the form of a track runner. Our group determined that the subject's form on the treadmill was different than track running which proved our hypothesis to be correct. There was a large difference in the angular velocity at the hip joint for treadmill and track running. There was also a significant difference of range of motion of the hip joint during treadmill and track running. These two results showed the natural running form was altered during treadmill running. The overuse of treadmill running as a substitute for track running can lead to muscle activation changes and timing of muscle firing. As a consequence, these changes in muscles activation patterns could lead to a decrease in performance. Also, in the journal article by Hickson et al (1977) "it has been suggested that ratios outside a specific, defined range may predispose the knee to injury." In our study, we found differences in the range of motion at the hip joint, which we believe can also lead to range of motion differences at the knee joint. Because of these potential range of motion differences at the knee joint, we can speculate that the body can be predisposed to injury.
4/4/07 4:10 PM
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Matt Jubera
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Edited: 04-Apr-07
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Bolo, "With the treadmill, you are not pushing yourself away from the ground; you are just lifting your legs." It seems like that statement wouldn't hold up to the scientific method. If I stand on a treadmill and just lift my feet off the ground as if I am marching in place, I will fall off the treadmill. I believe walking (whether on the ground or on a treadmill) is like a controlled forward fall with the unbalancing being caused by the legs and back.
4/4/07 4:30 PM
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Bolo
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Edited: 04-Apr-07 04:36 PM
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Matt, My statement was a very simplified way of explaining the difference. Your statement about marching in place is a completely different movement because you are not taking in consideration what the rest of the body is doing. In addition, the lifting of the leg movement when running a treadmill is different than the lifting of the legs when you are marching in place.
4/4/07 6:12 PM
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m.g
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Edited: 04-Apr-07
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Matt, You mentioned that Bolo's statement wouldn't hold up to the scientific method. But you failed to make any comment on the research article Bolo referenced. The article does seem to say that running on the ground and running on the treadmill are indeed different. If this is the case with running it is safe to assume it is the case with walking. Of course one would have to do more research BUT it seems Bolo has supply some "scientific" information and I am sure there is more. To say his statement doesn't hold up to the "scientific method" and then ignore the scientific research provided seem to make that criticism a bit strange.
4/5/07 1:20 PM
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Matt Jubera
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Edited: 05-Apr-07
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mg, The article hypothesized that the treadmill would alter the form of an elite runner. Bolo proposed that a person can use a treadmill by just lifting their legs. That article was not meant to support that portion of his proposal, so I didn't reference it.
4/5/07 4:21 PM
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Bolo
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Edited: 05-Apr-07
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Matt, You are taking the movement out of context. The lifting motion I am referring to is in the context of the entire body attempting to run. The lifting motion you are talking about is not in an attempt to generate forward movement.
4/5/07 5:24 PM
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m.g
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Edited: 05-Apr-07
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Matt, Actually Bolo is saying more than that. You have to take Bolo's statement in context with his overall point. Bolo said: "Walking on the ground works very specific muscles in a very specific way." His example of how one walks on a treadmill compared to the ground may be simplified but it does illustrate the point that is a significant difference between the two. The article he referenced does support that the "principle". The article confirms that there is a "difference" biomechanically and physiologically concerning the "same" activity on the ground and treadmill. In other words the same activity is "performed" differently on the two different environments (ground and treadmill). The article talks specifically about running but one can safely assume the finding will also apply to walking.
4/6/07 11:35 AM
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groundfighter2000
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Edited: 06-Apr-07
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ttt
4/6/07 1:06 PM
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Bolo
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Edited: 06-Apr-07
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Here's the bottom line....If you want to improve your body, run or walk on the ground rather than a treadmill. There are plenty of other ways to improve your endurance, get a workout, etc... without using that machine.
4/8/07 2:24 AM
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wastedtime
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Edited: 08-Apr-07
Member Since: 04/04/2007
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I use the treadmill for active rest between weighted and non-weighted circuits to condition my cardio. my heart rate goes through the roof!
4/8/07 2:47 AM
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Bolo
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Edited: 08-Apr-07
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I didn't say that it won't push your cardio endurance. However, you will cause other problems for your body. Personally, I am not willing to try to increase one aspect of my body by messing up another. There are plenty of ways to increase all aspects without negative effects. If someone recommends a particular strength and conditioning program that they use, I would suggest looking into it deeper by asking the person about the pains, aches, injuries, and surgeries the person has.
4/8/07 8:10 PM
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Eel
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Edited: 08-Apr-07
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Bolo, Are you a fan of jumping rope for building cardio capacity and staying within the guidelines of your posture friendly exercises?
4/8/07 8:34 PM
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Bolo
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Edited: 08-Apr-07
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Jumping rope is totally fine.
4/16/07 7:32 AM
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ams
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Edited: 16-Apr-07
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What about stairmaster and rowing maching (not sure about the correct english term)?
4/16/07 9:36 PM
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Bolo
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Edited: 16-Apr-07
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InvisiblePinkUni, It was deleted because of your smart ass attitude in your post. ------------- ams, The Stairmaster where you just pump your legs up and down is no good. The one that is actually a revolving staircase where you actually need to walk up the stairs is fine. Rowing machines are fine.
4/21/07 2:39 AM
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ams
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Edited: 21-Apr-07
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Thanks Bolo!
5/16/07 5:32 PM
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NowhereMan22000
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Edited: 16-May-07
Member Since: 08/05/2001
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I hadn't considered this Bolo - useful information. I only use my treadmill now for <10 mins of HIIT training (cycles 30 seconds on, 10 seconds off at max speed and max incline) - is this less of an issue? Thanks
5/16/07 10:43 PM
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Bolo
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Edited: 16-May-07
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I don't understand why people can't just go outside and run.
5/17/07 2:34 AM
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NowhereMan22000
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Edited: 17-May-07
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Well, for me I bought the treadmill when my second child arrived as I knew I wouldn't get out much.
5/17/07 10:09 AM
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Bolo
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Edited: 17-May-07
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You said that you use your treadmill for 10 minutes. I think you can step out of your house and run back and forth down your street for 10 min. once a day.
8/8/07 2:47 AM
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Sothy
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Edited: 08-Aug-07
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Bolo, what are your thoughts on the bike then? Would that be natural in this sense? thanks
8/8/07 3:46 PM
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m.g
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Edited: 08-Aug-07
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"I don't understand why people can't just go outside and run." Honestly? Because of a combination of things including fear.
8/9/07 4:04 AM
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Bolo
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Edited: 09-Aug-07 04:10 AM
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Sothy, Biking is good. However, I do not recommend that people permanently substitute any form of exercise for walking and running. If you want to be able to walk and run with ease when you are much older, you simply need to do it continuously throughout your life. by the way, when I talk about running, I'm not saying that you have to go out and jog. There are many sports that involving running But also keep in mind that the body was designed to do many different types of movements, therefore, only doing very few types of movement, and that includes walking or running, can cause problems for the body. So if the only thing you do is run or bike, this will eventually cause problems for your body or at least limit your ability to perform movements outside of that one activity you do. In my opinion, things like walking, running, biking, etc... should all be part of a person's exercise lifestyle.
8/10/07 3:01 AM
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Sothy
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Edited: 10-Aug-07
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thanks again

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