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What if ... >> honest opinion on dogfighting?


5/14/07 7:11 PM
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BigBopper
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Edited: 14-May-07
Member Since: 05/27/2006
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And there was evening and there was morning, a fifth day. And God said, "Let the earth bring forth living creatures according to their kinds: cattle and creeping things and beasts of the earth according to their kinds." And it was so. And God made the beasts of the earth according to their kinds and the cattle according to their kinds, and everything that creeps upon the ground according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth." So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. And God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the air and over every living thing that moves upon the earth."
5/14/07 7:12 PM
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cottonzway
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Edited: 14-May-07
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I honestly hope people who do that die of super aids. As for the sub-topic I agree with going to a pound to get a dog with the exception of a few cases. I used a top notch breeder to get my English Bulldog a little over 4 years ago. Why did I go that route and spend $3,000 for my dog? Because particular dogs MUST have a history of good bloodlines to have a good quality of life. English Bulldogs do not cross bread well with anything. If you get one that has poor bloodline or is mixed it will have a poor life usually. My dog has an excellent life without breathing problems or joint problems. To me it was worth making sure my "best friend" not only had a good life after I made him part of my family but also that his genetics would allow a long and happy life as well. This doesn't matter for some breeds, but Bulldogs NEED to have only their blood and that of an excellent history to ensure they won't have health problems.
5/14/07 7:14 PM
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BigBopper
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Edited: 14-May-07 07:18 PM
Member Since: 05/27/2006
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dominion - noun 1. the power or right of governing and controlling; sovereign authority.
5/14/07 7:30 PM
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SOLDAT
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Edited: 14-May-07
Member Since: 12/13/2005
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"I used a top notch breeder to get my English Bulldog a little over 4 years ago. Why did I go that route and spend $3,000 for my dog? Because particular dogs MUST have a history of good bloodlines to have a good quality of life. English Bulldogs do not cross bread well with anything. If you get one that has poor bloodline or is mixed it will have a poor life usually." You can thank show breaders for that. They are pretty horrible people IMO. People who strive to accentuate un-natural charactoristics at the expense of the dogs health and well being. English Bulldogs as a breed are a good example of this. These dogs have been bred to be ridiculously unnatural purely for looks (i.e. the entertainment of humans). Improper breeding for profit is almost as bad as dog fighting IMO. While most people could find a great pet at a shelter there are times when finding a quality breeder is a much better option. This will often be the case if you are looking for a working dog. Here genetics, as well as early socialization and training are very important. Not to say it is an imposibility to find a dog but you dont just go pick the one that looks cute.
5/14/07 7:43 PM
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xsoberxfighterx
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Edited: 14-May-07
Member Since: 02/10/2007
Posts: 19
"Bigbopper, are you trying to use a fictional story to justify dog fighting?" HAHAHA!!!
5/14/07 7:45 PM
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smac1
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Edited: 14-May-07
Member Since: 03/06/2006
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"Bigbopper, are you trying to use a fictional story to justify dog fighting?" Actually it reads to me that it is our responsibility to keep dogs from fighting. Interesting philosophy. Philosophy is often best explained in fictional stories.
5/14/07 8:10 PM
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BigBopper
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Edited: 14-May-07 08:14 PM
Member Since: 05/27/2006
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"Bigbopper, are you trying to use a fictional story to justify dog fighting?" Well, there are a lot of Christians on MMA.tv, so I thought I'd bring their ideas into the debate -- specifically, the idea that God gives man "dominion" over animals and directs people to "subdue" the earth. I'm not an expert in scripture, but that sounds to me like a clear statement from God that Christians have the moral right to engage in dogfighting.
5/14/07 8:15 PM
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pulsar
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Edited: 14-May-07
Member Since: 01/01/2001
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bywater: No I did, and you're on the right track, but being too flowery post the first page of discussion. It's a pretty cut and dried argument IMO.
5/14/07 8:28 PM
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cottonzway
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Edited: 14-May-07
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"You can thank show breaders for that. They are pretty horrible people IMO. People who strive to accentuate un-natural charactoristics at the expense of the dogs health and well being. English Bulldogs as a breed are a good example of this. These dogs have been bred to be ridiculously unnatural purely for looks (i.e. the entertainment of humans). Improper breeding for profit is almost as bad as dog fighting IMO. While most people could find a great pet at a shelter there are times when finding a quality breeder is a much better option. This will often be the case if you are looking for a working dog. Here genetics, as well as early socialization and training are very important. Not to say it is an imposibility to find a dog but you dont just go pick the one that looks cute." I agree there are many people out there who breed that are pure scum. I don't think it is fair to group all breeders like that though. My situation in finding a breeder is rare in the sense the breeder has a long track record of breeding English Bulldogs to my wife's family. Her family is all Marines. She has 4 uncles and her father was a Marine. The breeder is a retired Marine who has breed Bulldogs (for obvious reasons lol) for about 25 years. Her family has gotten over a 16 Bulldogs from this same breeder, all of them are very healthy and the ones that have passed on all lived to be over 14 years old with no major health problems. This guy LOVES these dogs as they to him represent the core so I guess it makes it kind of rare and lucky to those who get a dog from him.
5/14/07 9:03 PM
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xsoberxfighterx
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Edited: 14-May-07
Member Since: 02/10/2007
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.....im lost for words... you people will manipulate and twist that story book to justify anything.
5/14/07 9:10 PM
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SOLDAT
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Edited: 14-May-07
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"I don't think it is fair to group all breeders like that though." Name me one breed of dog that has had its overall health, temperment and over all well being increased by showbreaders. Anyone who works dogs wont touch show lines. Be it a Rottweiler, GSD, Lab, terrier, hound, or any other breed there is a HUGE difference between showlines and working lines. Look at a show GSD and the unnatural and detrimental angulation of their hips. Compare a show GSD dog to one from a working line. As for english bulldogs one of the reasons you had to drop 3k was probably to pay for its cesarian birth. It is very common that english Bulldogs can't be delievered normaly because their heads have been bred to be too large. The bigger the better is has been the rule of thumb for theri heads. This causes problems besides birth. I am glad you found dogs that seem to be free of health problems the breed by and large however has been turned in to unathletic lazy dogs that often have hip and other joint problems as well as skin and breathing problems. Many are very prone to over heating. All these problems come from breeding an animal to look a certain way. Those looks come at the expense of functionality and health. They also have suprisingly short life spans. I am glad to hear yours are living much longer than what one can typicaly expect. The fact is show breeders destroy dog breeds. They aren't much better than puppy mills.
5/14/07 9:46 PM
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Jay-dog
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Edited: 14-May-07
Member Since: 01/01/2001
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"I have a 15 month old gotti line pit and he is the sweetest animal I have ever met, I cant fathom the idea of any harm coming to him, especially intentially. I dont care if its the backyard kind or the so called "good guy" dog fighter, Id have a real hard time not kicking there teeth in if I came across some of these fucktards." I would never ever recommend fighting a show line like gotti.They are'nt made for the pit.I personally do not fight dogs and I am one of the biggest animal lovers you will ever meet but you have to know the history if you are going to judge,There are honestly game bred bloodlines that are not happy without fighting in their lives.It should NEVER be done to the death though!
5/14/07 9:54 PM
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smac1
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Edited: 14-May-07 11:13 PM
Member Since: 03/06/2006
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"Name me one breed of dog that has had its overall health, temperment and over all well being increased by showbreaders." The Doberman. 20 years ago it was all but unheard of for a Dobe to live to 10. Now it is common. It was the showbreeders who began rewarding dogs for longevity that caused this. Now every informed potential puppy owner asks if the sire and bitch are bred for longevity (both parents lived to be 10 or older). Hip Dysplasia is essentially eradicated from from the breed (puppy mills and bybs excluded). We still have a long way to go the 3 C's still take too many of our dogs much too early, but investment in time and money for research is clearly paying off. "Anyone who works dogs wont touch show lines. Be it a Rottweiler, GSD, Lab, terrier, hound, or any other breed there is a HUGE difference between showlines and working lines." There are lots of Dobermans with titles on both ends. Show champions working in Schutzund, Agility, Obedience, many of the best show lines are being used as companion dogs for the handicapped. Champion XXRemoved as per requestXXX Who my dogs are linebred on had sired more Show Champions AND more Dobermans with working titles than any living Doberman at the time of his death. This on very limited breeding. Lumping everyone who shows dogs in one pot is ridiculous. If you go to the Doberman National you will find the top working dogs and the top show dogs coming from the same lines and breeders and owners more interested in working learning from breeders and owners more interested in showing and vice versa. The amount of time and money the Doberman community has invested in improving the health of the breed can't even be questioned. Ray Carlisle who is undoubtedly the top Doberman breeder in the working arena routinely puts titles on the front end of his dogs. As long as judges reward dogs that adhere to the standard there is no reason for a divergence between the show ring and any working arena. Additionally my mom's Cocker comes from one of the top show breeders and handlers in the country, and while my mother could not work with her much because my mom was in a car accident and is handicapped as a result her bitch has tremendous breed specific drive. She could easily have titles on both ends. Yes I am repulsed as others when I see GSDs that are so over-angulated that they are literally bred lame in the rear being rewarded by judges, but this is not the case with the Dobe, I don't have enough breed specific knowledge of other breeds to specifically comment on them with the exception of my moms cocker and that is just anecdotal as it is only one bitch. I'm inclined to believe that out of all of the recognized breeds there are others.
5/14/07 10:19 PM
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cottonzway
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Edited: 14-May-07
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I guess I am speaking more about my personal experence then in general. My situation is unique in the guy who breeds them only does so for Marines or a Marine who will let the breeder know that the people who are honorable enough to treat the dog like how it should be. This is not a "private" breeder nor does the guy do it full-time. His costs are high because fo what he puts into breeding. I have honestly never seen a place that breeds animals look as clean as where he breeds these dogs. My dog is not big in the sense of having a wide stance or a jaw that sticks way out. He is 68 lbs. I could not be in the "shape" he is in if I worked out 2x a day. This has to do with the time I spent with him, but also his bloodlines. He is only lazy when there is nothing going but he has the energy of a little dog. I am 6'6" 290 lbs and he can PULL me across a field if he wants at something. The good thing is that is rare because his temperment doesn't cause that kind of reaction often. I still take every measure to make sure he lives long and good though. He takes Glycoseman (sp) daily and goes to the vet at least once a month. I baby this fucking dog! LOL He is worth it though because he is my best friend. I've never seen a dog so caring and loyal. So I can't speak on all of the other situations bro, but there are good breeders out there. I do think that the good ones are those who happen to do it for other reasons that cash. I found a breeder who does it for the love of the breed and what they represent to the Marines to him. It's rare, but when it comes to English Bulldogs you will find former Marines who pretty much worship this breed of dog and you will get a different type of dog from people like that. When your motovation is respect of the dog and what it means over money it is a safe place to get your dog from. I would have spent 10K for my dog to be honest.
5/14/07 11:08 PM
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smac1
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Edited: 14-May-07
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"I guess I am speaking more about my personal experence then in general. My situation is unique in the guy who breeds them only does so for Marines or a Marine who will let the breeder know that the people who are honorable enough to treat the dog like how it should be." This is how all responsible breeders behave, it's nice to hear someone has found one. We screen the homes of every potential owner, interview their veterinarian, and embed in our contract a stipulation banning the owner from ever selling the dog, giving it away, or taking it to a pound. On the flip side we will take any of our dogs back at anytime and refund the entire purchase price of the dog to the owner. We also take a $500.00 deposit when the puppy goes to it's new home that is returned to the owner when the puppy is spayed or neutered. They are also sold on a limited contract making it impossible for the owner to register any puppies that they would have. If enough time passes and we don't have confirmation that the pup has been spayed or neutered we go get the puppy back (no second chances, you have just proven yourself to be an unfit home). We also have a well defined series of events and environments that we expose the puppies to for the 8 - 12 weeks before they go to their new homes so that they are prepared both from a socialization and daily life experience standpoint. Right now we have more than 30 approved homes waiting for pups, some have been waiting more than 4 years. Since we average one breeding every 18-24 months it's not getting any shorter. We also don't place puppies in the order folks have been waiting. We place each puppy in the home we think will be best for it (putting temperments together with the right home while secondarily trying to be respectful of people who may prefer a red pup to a black one etc). Sometimes we place them into a home on another breeder we work withs waiting list if that is the best place for the puppy. The list would be lnger but we convince many approved homes that a dog from Dobe rescue would make more sense for them. We recently had a couple tell us that it was faster and easier for them to adopt a child then it was to get one of our puppies. "I do think that the good ones are those who happen to do it for other reasons that cash." You could not be more correct. Breeding done correctly is like throwing money down a well. You do it for the love of the breed. If everything goes perfectly you are lucky to break even. The only reason to ever do a breeding (in my mind) is that you honestly believe (and have solicited opinions from other qualified individuals) that it will strengthen the breed as a whole. The number of healthy dogs being killed in this country daily because there are no homes for them mandates that breeding be done very sparingly, and only with the well being of the breed in mind.
5/14/07 11:09 PM
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Spankenstyne
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Edited: 14-May-07
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Holy crap HB Punk, it didn't click in until you mentioned Junior that i noticed the name. The only generalization i will make after reading all this is: Don't generalize! How's that for hypocritical?
5/15/07 12:41 AM
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SOLDAT
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Edited: 15-May-07
Member Since: 12/13/2005
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I will tell you up front my knowledge of doebermans is rather limited they are a breed I have never had much involvement with. I would note that dog life expectancies in general are longer than they were 20 yrs ago. That is not to say what you said isn't true. I will tell you the people I know who are serious about working their dogs be it for serious PP work (which is a far cry from SCH or French ring) or serious sport work turn to the European working lines of rotties, Dobes, Malinois, and GSDs. I dont doubt you can find a Dobe that can show and earn some sport titles. Ideally people would only breed dogs like that. I would argue that for many breeds their working ability takes a back seat for most breeders who aren't dedicated to developing those traits specificaly. You pointed out a way that showbreeding helped the health of dobermans, but I would still contend that it has harmed their working ability by shifting the focus of breeding programs away from the attribute a dog should have and onto certain looks. A very knowledgable dog trainer who works in both obedience and protection work once commented that of all the GSD, Rotties and Dobes that come through his obedience class he estimated only 10% wre fit for protection work. (I should also say that this man a greatly respect trainer had some amazing working dogs that he also showed.) That is pretty sad IMO considering what the dogs were originaly bred for that so few can actually do PP work. Certain breeds have much more cross over between show and work. You mentioned Dobermans, another would be a breed I love the dogo argentino. One can find a dogo that would be a good show prospect and still a great working dog. I am sad to see that Kennels are popping up where they are breeding dogos that have never been hunted. That can only result in their hunting ability being diluted and them slowly losing what it is that makes a dogo a dogo. I genuinely believe the breed will be damaged bu this. Something these breeds have in common however is they are not terribly popular breeds. It seems the more popular a breed becomes the more quickly that breed will be hurt. Compare rare working breeds with Labs, GSD, Rotties (another breed I adore), etc. Look at the problems those dogs have. Cockerspaniels are another example of a dog that in my opinion has been pretty well ruined. It is a chore to find one that can actually preform its original function and is free of the many problems that plaig that breed. This thread was about pitbulls ask yourself how long those dogs have been around versus when there started to be reports of pitbulls mauling people. The problems with dogs followed their increase in populartity. A result of bad owners and bad breeders coming out of the wood work IMO. "So I can't speak on all of the other situations bro, but there are good breeders out there. I do think that the good ones are those who happen to do it for other reasons that cash. I found a breeder who does it for the love of the breed and what they represent to the Marines to him. It's rare, but when it comes to English Bulldogs you will find former Marines who pretty much worship this breed of dog and you will get a different type of dog from people like that. When your motovation is respect of the dog and what it means over money it is a safe place to get your dog from." I agree completely. Smac1 has done a wonderful job of describing the types of things that reponsible breeders do. Smac1 It sounds like you are a responsible breeder and it is nice to meet them. I am sure if you have been around dogs you understand the point I was getting at (even if I overstated it). It is simply put IMO a trajedy when people breed for appearance over function (temperment, working ability, health etc).
5/15/07 2:33 AM
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mdrndaysamurai
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Edited: 15-May-07
Member Since: 01/07/2006
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i think people should get dogs from the pound instead of buying them from breeders. it's basically deciding other dogs should die because you want a dog that looks cool.
5/15/07 3:36 AM
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DallasVanWinkle
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Edited: 15-May-07
Member Since: 05/07/2005
Posts: 203
it sucks, jerk
5/15/07 6:02 AM
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MrFixit
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Edited: 15-May-07
Member Since: 09/09/2006
Posts: 3654
The dogfighting community needs a sanctioning body to bring dogfighting into the mainstream, like MMA years ago.
5/15/07 7:32 AM
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stlnl2
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Edited: 15-May-07
Member Since: 05/20/2004
Posts: 2462
"From: Brandon Garner Date: 05/14/07 06:46 PM Member Since: 05/11/2004 18 Total Posts Ignore User MMA forum members talking about dogfighting is about as funny as a dumb ass reporter who has interviewed some guys at a bar about "UFC Fighting" talking about MMA. Unless you actually have any idea what you are talking about, other than knowing some guy who's brother has a pitbull, then you should keep your opinion to yourself. Too many people have opinions about things they know nothing about. No wonder it took MMA so long to catch on. 10 years ago people said a lot of similar ignorant things about MMA and MMA fighters. Brandon" Well, I have read several books about it, and a buddy of mine when I was a kid raised pitbulls to fight, and fought them. I have a rescue pit now that was abandoned and left for dead after she dropped a litter of pups. I clearly understand the difference between a high end "dogman" and alot of the trash that just like to fight pitbulls. Sorry to say I dont have a high opinion of the first group and the second group should be euthanized, period. If you have some sort of argument that could enlighten me or change my thinking save it for the next Saturday/Sunday every one trains together, I'll keep an open mind, but plan on an uphill battle in convincing me of the "ok-ness" of dogfighting.
5/15/07 7:35 AM
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casalex
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Edited: 15-May-07
Member Since: 02/07/2007
Posts: 38
You arsehole what the fuck is "acceptable" about dogs reared and trained to fight for human entertainment? Anyone who condones, watches or is involved with any kind of animal-vs-animal fighting should move the fuck back to medieval Europe and remove themselves from the gene pool. I also infer you compare MMA to dogfighting? You are fucking disgusting. It's not culture it's bloodlust. Choke on dick, die, not necessarily in that order.
5/15/07 7:45 AM
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stlnl2
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Edited: 15-May-07
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"You all talkn all this tough shit on the net about how youd kill a dogfighter wouldnt make any comments at a fight,or even look at one the wrong way,i guarantee you that.Branden,are you Tom's son?" Well I certainly would never BE at a dogfight. As to what I would do to a dogfighter, well it wouldnt be on one's best interest to let me know that was his big thrill and then piss me off. Kill? no, kick teeth out and tie up into a knot.....strong possiblility.
5/15/07 7:53 AM
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smac1
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Edited: 15-May-07
Member Since: 03/06/2006
Posts: 6849
"It is simply put IMO a trajedy when people breed for appearance over function (temperment, working ability, health etc)" You are missing one point, appearance and function are inseparably linked. All the reasons that a certain appearance is defined as ideal for a breed is because that appearances is ideal for it to function as it was intended. Don't forget most breeds are man made, intentional bastardizations of existing dogs to create a certain appearance, because that is the healthiest appearance for the breed. Working ability is very important and health is of paramount importance. If the breed has a good standard and judges reward it in the show ring then we will be putting titles on dogs that have the best structure for doing there job. "I am sad to see that Kennels are popping up where they are breeding dogos that have never been hunted." Kennels that breed dogs, or anyone who breeds dogs that can not do their job are not part of what I consider the responsible breeder community. Anyone who breeds a dog for any reason other than to do it's job is being irresponsible. "A very knowledgable dog trainer who works in both obedience and protection work once commented that of all the GSD, Rotties and Dobes that come through his obedience class he estimated only 10% wre fit for protection work." I think he is being generous. I'd honestly say that 19-20 Dobes I see are clearly the result of breeding that were inexcusable. The truth is know matter what breed people want, most of them really want a happy go lucky Golden dressed up like a Doberman, Rottie, Boxer or whatever. Very few people are prepared to commit the amount of time and effort involved in owning a real Doberman or other working dog. People call all the time wanting "two males" one it is totally irresponsible to get two dogs at the same time, and two you can't put two well bred male Dobes within smelling range of each other. Sorry but Dobes with all the other proper drives bring male aggressiveness along with them. People don't even do the most basic research into a breed before deciding which one they want. You are right (IMO) that popularity will hurt a breed. But popularity of most working breeds is fleeting. The responsible breeders who love the breed persevere and when some other dog becomes the dog de jour a breed is left with those who really love and care about it. You want the real dirty secret of the puppy mill. It is often their intent that the dogs be of terrible health. Because the shorter your dogs lifespan the quicker you will be back for another puppy. Pure economics.
5/15/07 11:43 AM
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MrFixit
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Edited: 15-May-07
Member Since: 09/09/2006
Posts: 3657
I don't see a sanctioned dogfighting event leading to the deaths of dogs any more that I see sanctioned MMA events leading to the death of fighters.

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